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ADS 1590's Versus Axiom M80's--Which is Better?

R

reformed202

Member
Hello Everyone,

I have the opportunity to buy a pair of ADS 1590 Braun speakers in very good condition for $1,100 plus $400 shipping. I have also been looking at a brand new pair of Axiom M80's with a custom matte finish for $1,100 plus free shipping. I have been torn over whether to go the vintage route or with the new speakers.
I discussed the issue with a very nice fellow at Axiom. He explained that the 10'' woofers on the ADS and other older speakers had a "Doppler Effect" instead of a straight excursion. I'm assuming this meant that the ADS didn't have as tight a bass response as the newer speakers which utilize smaller woofers.

I am also a lover of pipe organ music, which (as I'm sure you all know) involves some very low bass (16-17 herz range). The fellow at Axiom told me that I would need to get a powerful subwoofer to reproduce these frequencies (he recommended the Axiom EP 500). He said this would go a lot lower than ADS 1590's.

Anyway, there you have it. I've really benefitted from the forum for a while now as a "lurker." Now I'm actually in the market for some speakers on a limited budget and could profit greatly from your expertise. Any help would be appreciated.
 
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My vote is for the ADS's as they probably have one of the flattest on axis and power responses I have seen, along with very low bass distortion. But even they will probably benefit from a "true" sub-woofer if you really need to get down to 16Hz!

Another nice thing about the 1590 is that the mid dome crosses over at a low 350 Hz, IIRC, letting a single driver handle the ear's most sensitive range.
 
I'd likely go for the A/D/S too. I have never heard a bad pair! I really like the dynamics of A/D/S - Braun speakers. It might be an acquired taste? Have you ever heard them?
 
Thanks so much for the replies!

I have not heard either speaker. Some have told me that speaker technology has advanced since the ADS 1590s. Is that the case? What about this "Doppler Effect" the Axiom rep spoke of that apparently plagues earlier speakers like the A/D/S, resulting in a less than tight bass? Also, is $1,100 plus $400 too hefty a price tag for the ADS, or should I wait for another opportunity?

Thanks!
 
Well, these are questions only you can answer. For that kind of $, I'd be listening before I spent. I'll bet that someone will be bringing A/D/S to the next AK Fest, so if all else fails you can go to one and hear them first hand.

Also, look into Duffinators A/D/S knowledge base here on AK. You can also PM him to get his take on the 1590's? I'm pretty sure other members have them too? I'd post a request for comments on the 1590's and see what you get.

I have heard maybe 6 pairs of A/D/S within the last 10 years or so. Always very well presented. Bass has not been a problem to me - ever. Big A/D/S are the only speakers I will consider trading in my Infinities for. I own others but these are it for me with my gear.

Of course they don't fit all situations. For instance, in my HT system I'm running BA T-830s for front L-R mains. That's due to WAF, physical fit and the nature of HT which is not a music based audio stream. To me, it would be a waste of hard to find A/D/S to do that job. I should say that I own a pair of A/D/S 990's, they will only get traded if a pair of 1290's come along. I just don't think you'll read a bad comment or review on their speakers anywhere here on AK. That's pretty remarkable for any MFG.

As far as old technology - uh huh - sure? Some of the finest speakers that set bench marks that are still hard to equal were built 30 years ago. Try some Infinity RS IIb's or their counterparts. Why do you think these things are still bringing hundreds or thousands of dollars per pair if the technology were out dated?

You might need to expand your search a bit. Have you googled "A/D/S 1590 craigslist"? I'd be trying to find another set that was not quite so expensive. Maybe start with 1290 and a sub? Should get you very close to what you want and when the 1590's come along, you'll be able to sell your existing pair for what you have in them. Think you can do that with the Axioms?

Here's a quote that refers to the distortion:

As for ADS' critical acclaim, there were numerous reviews on the various models (up through and including the Unison series) in most of the major magazines. Nearly all of the reviews were extremely flattering and favorable to ADS, with many exclamations from renowned critics such as Julian Hirsch saying about the L1290, "...the widest and flattest response we can recall measuring from a speaker with our current test procedures." Another reference to the 1290, "the woofer distortion was perhaps the lowest we have yet measured." Hans Fantel in The New York Times said, "...the L1590 is widely regarded as one of the finest loudspeakers ever made." Ovation magazine reviewed the L1090 and gave it very high marks; High Fidelity gave high marks to the single-woofer L990 as did Digital Audio magazine. Hirsch also reviewed the L780 and gave it the same type of excellent review as he did the 1290. These are just some of the reviews that I have in my file; there are probably quite a few more.

--Tom Tyson
 
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reformed202 said:
...the 10'' woofers on the ADS and other older speakers had a "Doppler Effect" instead of a straight excursion. I'm assuming this meant that the ADS didn't have as tight a bass response as the newer speakers which utilize smaller woofers.

I am also a lover of pipe organ music, which (as I'm sure you all know) involves some very low bass (16-17 herz range). The fellow at Axiom told me that I would need to get a powerful subwoofer to reproduce these frequencies (he recommended the Axiom EP 500). He said this would go a lot lower than ADS 1590's....
Click to expand...

The 1590s "only" go around to 28hz flat or so. Good for most folk, but won't hit the range you need. But please read on...

The bass, while maybe not as tight as some newer offerings, like some Monitor Audio Silver Series 9is I just spent some time with, is however, somehow, more satisfying. Not as sharp or pinpoint as the MAs were, but a lot more hearty, satisfying, and natural, as I'd hear it in a real performance.

Don't mistake them for ever being sloppy because they are far, far from that.

reformed202 said:
...Some have told me that speaker technology has advanced since the ADS 1590s. Is that the case? What about this "Doppler Effect" the Axiom rep spoke of that apparently plagues earlier speakers like the A/D/S, resulting in a less than tight bass? Also, is $1,100 plus $400 too hefty a price tag for the ADS, or should I wait for another opportunity?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I paid and sold my aDs L1230s for around $400, and have seen them sell for $400 to $700- and worth it. The L1290s sell normally for $400 to $700-$750 but aren't as deep in the bass region as the L1230 or L1590- flat, claims say, to 40Hz- though folk claim good sound extension to 30Kz.

L1590s, L1530s and L2030s don't come up often. However I don't think the prices they command are worth the extra bass- and not in your case either.


No matter what, you're going to have to add a subwoofer to them to get as low as you'd like. My advice is go with a 1090, 1230 or 1290 (perhaps a 1530 or 1590 at a better price than you're being offered) and then add one hell of a nice subwoofer.

BrocLuno said:
...look into Duffinators A/D/S knowledge base here on AK. You can also PM him to get his take on the 1590's? I'm pretty sure other members have them too?...
Click to expand...

I let my aDs L1230s go two weeks ago and an hour after doing so, I realized I made a big mistake. My first major, gut-wrenching regret. I was fortunate to have a lateral trade of sorts and ended up replacing them with L1290s, which arrive today, at about 4:30. Rumored to be near mint, and cost me $325 DELIVERED.

What was my trade-off betwixt the L1230 and L1290? More bass in the L1230, and the L1230 is a bit more diffused in presentation- not as pinpoint but using the room for ambience.

The L1290 gives me required floor space, as I am in a wheelchair- the L1230s in my small home were hindering my ability to get around. However imaging should be improved with the layout of the drivers. If I absolutely need more "oomph" I will add a pair of NHT subs I own.


I want to tell you I own Dahlquists, Thiels, Vandersteens, and AR9s as well.

The AR9s go lower in bass than even the L1230s and L1590s, and were used as the speaker darlings of the Massachusetts audio society until Carver Amazings usurped them. So these may be to your liking.

However TelArc recording used L1530s as their studio monitors- and TelArc is one hell of a fantastic record and cd label.

The Vandersteens and Thiels are indeed a bit more refined- a touch more detail, a slightly more cohesive presentation- but there's a magic to the aDs that I'm not sure they can top. For pure listening pleasure, the aDs are outstanding.

Sometimes a speaker too refined wrecks the experience, as now you've only got a handful of recordings that were expertly and near perfectly mastered that will sound good on them. 90%-plus of the other recordings will sound like pure muck and no longer be enjoyable.

Fodder for thought.



I'll expound more later once I get the L1290s up and running.

Cheers,

Paul
 
The Axiom rep is trying to sell you Axiom speakers. And you would probably be pretty happy with the M80's and the subwoofer... nice system when it's all said and done. Axiom makes good speakers.

However...

They are not ADS. ADS speakers are classics and highly sought after, for good reason. They are simply some of the best speakers ever made for their pricing point. As you can see from the responses here, there won't be many nay-sayers when it comes to ADS speakers.

The "Doppler Effect" is a funny argument for the Axiom rep to use in my opinion. Any item that moves while producing sound can cause the listener to experience a "Doppler Effect". It's simply the fact that sound gets quieter as the sound producer moves away from you and louder as it moves toward you. The more an item moves, the more the "Doppler Effect" comes into play. Certain frequencies are more affected than others at least by the listener's ears, so you would probably pick up on mid-range frequencies and high frequencies doing this more than lower bass. Okay, apply this to the speakers in question...

The Axiom have smaller woofers which have to move more to produce the same amount of bass as a larger woofer. The ADS have larger woofers which move less.

Just an educated guess, but I would say that the "Doppler Effect" would be experienced less with the ADS 1590's than the Axiom speakers. Been wrong before though.

Another thing that might make me less inclined to the Axiom speakers is the titanium tweeter. I haven't experienced a lot of speakers that use this, but all the ones that I have listened to for extended periods of time eventually seem to fatigue my ears. They come across a little harsh to me over time. The silk domes on the ADS speakers are the definition of smooth and "anti-fatiguing".
 
BPFisch said:
...The "Doppler Effect" is a funny argument for the Axiom rep to use in my opinion....Just an educated guess, but I would say that the "Doppler Effect" would be experienced less with the ADS 1590's than the Axiom speakers....

...Another thing that might make me less inclined to the Axiom speakers is the titanium tweeter. I haven't experienced a lot of speakers that use this, but all the ones that I have listened to for extended periods of time eventually seem to fatigue my ears. They come across a little harsh to me over time. The silk domes on the ADS speakers are the definition of smooth and "anti-fatiguing".
Click to expand...



Agreed on the "doppler argument, and the titanium tweeter will be more detailed but without proper match to good "warm" SS gear or tubes, may prove harsh or strident or fatigueing.
 
Unless your speakers are spinning like a Leslie, the "doppler" reference indicates a salesman who doesn't know the meaning of the word.

My main speakers currently are near mint rosewood ADS L1590 Series 2. I've also owned L980 2s and L1290 Series 1s. The bass produced by the dual 8" woofers in the 1290s was a bit tighter but leaner than either the 980s or 1590s. When I bi-amped the 1290s it tightened up the bass even more. It could be due to the 10" woofers being a little slower, I'm not sure. In any event, I'm hoping to eliminate the difference by eventually bi-amping the 1590s.

You can't go wrong with either the 1290s or 1590s. If you have a large space you might be slightly better off with the 1590s. I personally like the transparency of ADS speakers. They reproduce what is there without coloration the way some big name manufacturers do.

Now the question becomes value for the price. The price you have been quoted seems pretty high to me. If you keep your eyes open, you should eventually find a pair for less. I found two pairs of 1590s within a few weeks! I sold the first pair when I found the mint pair. Lucky me. :banana:

You are the only one who can decide the value of this pair. If they are truly mint, rosewood with perfect grills and you have the cash, I won't be the one to tell you not to buy them! :D
 
Hi I have never heard any Axiom speakers. But I do have the ADS 1590's. They are the best speakers I have. I prefer them over the JBL 4410a and the AR1's that I have. I paid 400.00 for mine but got no grills and also latter found out that they had the wrong mids and tweeters in them. It took me 2 years to find the right parts and then have them rebuilt. So I've got 700-800.00 tied up in mine. 1100.00 plus the shipping my be a little steep but these speakers cost 2500.00 new in the 80's so you could really compare them to speakers costing 4-5000.00 now. They are very well made in the USA. I do get bass down to 20hz no problem but the response is not flat I get a hump at 60hz due to my room and set up. I'd be happy to demo the ads for you if your local.
 
You will not be sorry if you choose the ADS speakers. If it were not for the shipping cost, the price is reasonable if they are perfect.

I would love to have the full range of the 1590s, but my 1090s combined with a sub woofer sound great and they have better WAF in the room I use for TV and video.

I know nothing about your other choice but I recently choose a more modern speaker over another set of ADS speakers for my 2nd system.

One of the reasons I have always had interest in the Solilquy 6.5 and purchased a pair for my 2nd system is because their looks reminded me of the big ADS towers. They also have dome midranges and multiple woofers (3). However, I now know their sound has nothing in common with the cool sound of the ADS speakers. Compared to the 1090s, my 6.5s are brighter, have more air, deeper bass, and the fact they are ported makes their room postion more critical. I came really close to buying a set of 1290s (I could not find 1590s at the time) instead of the 6.5s. I love these 6.5s and they sound superb in all regards but it would be very interesting to do an A/B comparison with the 1590s.

some of the better new speakers are hard to beat but the ADS towers give them some tough competition!
 
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:thmbsp::thmbsp:Didnt have the m80s but had the m50s they got the boot to my ns690s .my neighbor is happy with the m50s really look at them build wise........they couldnt handle what they were rated for my 9090db ate them for breakfast . were my 690s say is that all you got.........
 
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I have not heard Axiom speakers, but can vouch for the ADS line. I have owned numerous ADS speakers (L570, Braun 710, ADS/Braun 810, 810 series II, and 910s) and stacked them up to a variety of modern speakers. I must say that the larger ADS speakers are among the best I have ever heard, even when compared to modern designs. A tangible midrange, sweet yet realistic highs, and tight bass. The 910s I owned smoked my dad's Vandersteen 2CE Sigs (he even admitted it), a speaker long respected as a leader in the sub $2000 price point. I have plans to eventually upgrade my electronics, sources, etc... However my current 810s will be the last to go (if at all). They are a very special speaker. $1500 for the 1590s may be a little high (shipping included) but not if really you consider the caliber of speaker you are getting.
 
What a fantastic forum. I should have joined long ago! Honestly, thanks so much for the information.

I've been analyzing all your comments with a fine tooth comb. Based upon the collective wisdom I've gleaned thus far, the ADS 1590 is the definite winner. AT the same time, everyone seems to be in agreement that the price is pretty steep, even for 1590s in near mint condition.

I've looked at Craigslist in my own state (New Hampshire), as well as every other state in New England. I've even looked in New Jersey and Delaware. I could not find even one ADS 1590 or 1290 [by the way, black speakers are out, as they would not get spouse approval].

My two questions at this point would be: (1) For those of you who watch the speaker market regularly, do 1590's in mint condition pop up on a regular basis? This would greatly influence my decision as to whether or not I should jump on this opportunity. (2) If a speaker is twenty years old, does it lose some of its sound quality (even if it has been well cared for)? I wondered as to whether or not drivers have a certain "shelf-life," and if I would soon have to replace drivers if they were old. I should also let you know that I would be unable to hear these particular speakers before I bought them.

Thanks again!
 
In my opinion, the price does seem to be a little high. But that's very subjective. If the ADS's really are in mint condition, then they are probably worth the money. But "mint condition" takes into consideration a few different factors...

External condition: The wood should be darn near perfect for that price. No water marks, bleaching, gouges, etc. And very few, if any scratches. The grills should be perfect... period!

Working condition: All drivers should be ABSOLUTELY perfect! No pushed in dust caps, no rust on the woofer frames, nothing that indicates poor condition in any way. And all components on the crossover should be up to spec. Basically the capacitors are the question here.

Capacitors can "go bad" over time and that usually results in the higher frequencies being dull or lifeless. ADS used top notch components in their crossovers, and I doubt seriously that this would be an issue with the speakers in question. Just something to ask about and be aware of. The drivers that ADS used don't really have a "shelf life" because there is no foam surround on the woofers that will rot and need replacement.

I'm not really in the market for another pair of speakers, but I do keep an eye out for ADS. I don't see many 1590's pop up over a year's time. Mint condition makes these a little more appealing, but they do come up now and then so these aren't necessarily the only chance you'll get.

Ultimately it's got to feel right to you.
 
Doppler Effect, good grief. Is this what passes for salesmanship? Perhaps the Axioms are 'digital ready" too. Personally, I think $1100 is high for the L1590's unless they are rosewoods w/ PA1 recesses. Those are rare. There are a lot of speakers out there that can be bought for that amount on the used market right now. $400 for shipping is theft. Two x 100 lb. oversize L1590 packages shipped from Boston to Los Angeles & insured for $500 each, from an individual w/ no shipping discount, dropped off at UPS w/ final delivery to a residence is ~1/2 that!
 
Hi Soundmotor,

They are Rosewoods (though I'm not sure about the PA1 recesses). The reason I'm even still considering the price is because I was recently outbid on Ebay for a mint pair of ADS 1590's. They went for $1,365 plus $150 shipping [$1,515 total], which is actually $15.00 more than the present opportunity. The fellow is actually in Canada (maybe that makes it more expensive on the shipping end?) and might be quoting me in CAD rather than USD.

What gives me pause is Thedelihaus' statement regarding his recent ADS 1290's purchase for only $325 (including delivery, and these are even in mint condition!)

I would really like nice speakers, for I listen to a lot of classical music (especially pipe organ and choral works, as well as symphonies--all of which involve an extreme dynamic range). I haven't found any other 1590's on Craigslist, Ebay, or Audiogon. I'm wondering now if I should expand my horizons to something other than ADS. Are there any other speakers which would be comparable to an ADS 1590 for $1,000 or under? Perhaps that is opening up a Pandora's Box on an audiophile forum, but I'm very eager to hear your comments. Thanks again!
 
For the record, I got a pretty great deal on my L1290s. But I also let the L1230s go for only a smidge more, and have seen a few pop up at $400-$450. Comparable in bass to the L1590.

Where in new hampshire are you? Come down for a listen to the 1290s if it's feasible to you. That will give you a loose idea of the sound.

For real deep bass, also consider/look towards AR9s and AR9LSi. I own some 9LSis, and also have a friend with two pair 9s. These go lower than the L1230 and L1590, and perhaps lower than the L1530 to boot.

There's also a pair of aDs L1530s on Audiogon that will go lower than the L1590s- deeper bass. And around the same price or less than the L1590s you are looking at.
 
Thedelihaus,

Thanks for the feedback! I looked up the ADS 1530's on Audigon. They looked in very good shape, except for some "cat-snags" to one of the grills. He is asking $1,400 OBO. The thing with this offer is that the seller will not pack it himself, but wants the buyer to arrange for that as well as the shipping. In the end of the day, I think the dent in the wallet would be about the same. You mentioned that the 1530 goes lower. Does it go very noticeably lower than the ADS 1590?

I also looked (but couldn't find) the AR9 speaker you mentioned for sale. If it has low bass for my pipe organ CDs, then I would be interested in it (as well as any other similar speaker).

Also, thank you for the offer to hear your 1290's (as well as Mopar3's offer to hear his 1590's). My schedule is busy over the next week or so, but I would certainly be interested. To be quite honest, I'm leaning toward the ADS on the basis of an audiophile friend (as well as the strong recommendations of the AK board), not having actually heard the speakers myself.
 
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