Allen 75 NFB questions

jbrew73

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I have a pair of Allen 75 amps that I am rebuilding. So far I have replaced the electrolytics and film caps. I have also rearranged some components to get the speaker outputs moved to the back, added an iec connector to the back , added power switch and pilot light to the front. No circuit modifications have been made.

I am getting about 68 watts on the output but I have found that the ef86 is clipping just before the output. The nfb seems to be seriously limiting the ef86’s gain. If I bypass the nfb the ef86 gain increases from about 20 to over 100. Those are rough approximations . I don’t have the exact numbers in front of me right now.

Does this seem normal? Has anyone done any modifications to the nfb circuit on one of these amps?
 

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NFB reduces gain by design. If the first voltage amp stage is clipping before the output stage does though, that usually indicates something is wrong. I'd probably confirm the voltages around the EF86 if a chart exists, and make sure the plate and screen resistors haven't gone completely out to lunch. That can screw with the operating conditions and limit the available voltage swing.

@Brice has experience with these, he'd probably be able to make better suggestions
 
With f/b disconnected, does the output signal clip symmetrically? The 5.0 ohm current sense resistors need to be matched and the resistance known accurately to get a good indication of balanced cathode currents to the 60mA level.

Feedback reduces the gain of the EF86 stage (not the other stages). If the output signal is becoming distorted as clipping sets in, then the feedback will be trying to offset that clipped peak by increasing the EF86 output, which may well be then effectively causing the EF86 signal to clip (as you observe).
 
normally you can tell if its the output signal clipping in a feedback amp by the output of the first voltage amp. Instead of the normal rounded tops of a sine wave, you'll get these extra little "bumps" on top as the voltage amp stage attempts to compensate. That same waveform will appear everywhere between the output of the voltage amp and the grids of the output tube.

There is only so much it can do to compensate though, so if the output stage clipping is causing the voltage amp to try and compensate, you'll get a sine wave with a bump and a flat top on that bump.
 
The 5 ohm resistors are matched very closely and I have confirmed the balance by measuring the current across the output transformer primary windings.

With the feedback disconnected the output clips symmetrically. Both signals start to square off evenly. With feedback I think the signal starts to round off more. Maybe that is because the nfb is doing its job.

With nfb connected the ef86 gets pointed nipples on the signal just prior to the onset of the output tube clipping. I may reduce the nfb slightly so I can see if that changes. The output and ef86 distort almost simultaneously but the ef86 appears to come in just a little sooner. I need to scope both signal simultaneously. I am just getting it running so I haven’t spent too much time troubleshooting. I am hoping to get some ideas from the forum as I proceed with it.

It doesn’t really make any more clean power with the feedback disconnected but I feel like I need to get the preamp cleaned up either way.
 
normally you can tell if its the output signal clipping in a feedback amp by the output of the first voltage amp. Instead of the normal rounded tops of a sine wave, you'll get these extra little "bumps" on top as the voltage amp stage attempts to compensate. That same waveform will appear everywhere between the output of the voltage amp and the grids of the output tube.

There is only so much it can do to compensate though, so if the output stage clipping is causing the voltage amp to try and compensate, you'll get a sine wave with a bump and a flat top on that bump.
That sounds very close to what I’m seeing. I’ll look more closely next time I work on it.
 
if you lift the coupling cap between the EF86 and whatever is downstream you can see what the max voltage output of the EF86 is. If its capable of a fair amount more signal than what you see when it starts distorting while connected to everything else, its not a problem at that stage.
 
The ef86 is dc coupled to the phase inverter. If I pull the phase inverter tube or lift the nfb with the phase inverter in place the clean signal gain increases exponentially higher. The ef86 stage works great without a nfb signal.

I believe that the nfb is causing what I am seeing. I just didn’t know if this is a problem or if it is doing exactly what it is designed to do.
 
If I may, there is a fundamental point that needs to be understood throughout this discussion: The application of Global Negative Feedback (GNFB) does not change the gain, output capability, or performance of the EF86 stage in any way -- nor any of the other stages within the GNFB loop for that matter, either. The open loop gain of the design -- as determined by the total gain of the various stages included within the loop -- remains unchanged whether the GNFB loop is open, or closed.

The NFB voltage is simply a "counter" if you will to the signal voltage applied to the stage that the NFB voltage is applied to. This effectively then reduces the signal voltage applied to that stage (by the amount of NFB applied) -- which it then amplifies with the same gain characteristics as it would were no NFB applied.

The salient point then is that when GNFB is applied, more signal drive is required into the stage it is applied to, versus the level if the feedback signal were not present -- not because the feedback has affected the gain of that stage, but because the effective signal applied to it has been reduced. What this really does then is require more of the preceding stage (or equipment) driving the stage where the NFB signal is inserted, because more signal is now required from that stage or equipment -- but nothing changed with the stage where the NFB was inserted, as has been suggested here.

If the EF86 stage does not show clipping at its output when maximum power output is being developed with the NFB loop open, but does when it is closed while producing the same power output level, then either the increased signal level now required to be presented to that stage is now being compromised, or much more likely, what you are really seeing is the beginning effects of a clipped output signal (produced no doubt by the output stage) being applied to that stage through the loop. The effects of that signal will be mixed with the input signal supplied to that stage, with the composite of those two signals produced at its plate in the same way that an "undistorted" NFB signal at lower power levels mixes with the input signal as well. A determination as to whether the stage where the NFB signal is applied is clipping or not under full power conditions can only be assessed then with the GNFB loop open.

Now, there is one corollary I will add to this discussion: If the stage where the NFB is applied is biased such that it requires the NFB voltage applied to it to keeep it from being overdriven when full power output is produced (i.e., where static bias voltage + peak NFB voltage is equal to but not greater than the peak input signal voltage required into that stage to produce a full power output conditon), then that produces a condition where the input stage (where NFB is applied) can in fact clip at the moment the output stage clips, because once that happens, then there is no more peak NFB voltage capable of being supplied to that stage to counter any increase in input signal applied there. The result is that the input stage instantly clips when maximum power output is reached.

This is why it is important to ensure that where any GNFB signal is inserted, there is enough static bias voltage present to ensure that the stage won't be overdirven at or shortly after maximum power output hs been reached. Having enough open loop gain (OLG) within the GNFB loop is the best way to ensure that this won't be a problem.

You might do the math regarding the bias conditions of the EF86 stage when maximum power is being approached and in fact reached to ensure that this last scenario is not what's occurring in the Allen design. Most capable designers ensured that this problem wouldn't occur, but not everyone abided by it -- when I did my rework of the Bogen MO-200 many years ago, I finally found out why the sound level from all those Bogen MX-60As I heard back in my band days in the 60s would pump and fade in and out as maximum power output was reached in those units when operating under what I call "band conditions": Yep, the input stage of the power amp section where the GNFB was applied would clip instantly when the output stage had no more "bias voltage" to apply back to the input stage. Not sure if Bogen ever learned that lesson or not, as pretty much all of their 8417 designs included that same flawed input stage design.

I hope this helps!

Dave
 
Thanks for the excellent detailed response. It helps tremendously.
I understand the first 4 paragraphs pretty well but the last 3 will take a little time for me to fully grasp.
 
Now, there is one corollary I will add to this discussion: If the stage where the NFB is applied is biased such that it requires the NFB voltage applied to it to keeep it from being overdriven when full power output is produced (i.e., where static bias voltage + peak NFB voltage is equal to but not greater than the peak input signal voltage required into that stage to produce a full power output conditon), then that produces a condition where the input stage (where NFB is applied) can in fact clip at the moment the output stage clips, because once that happens, then there is no more peak NFB voltage capable of being supplied to that stage to counter any increase in input signal applied there. The result is that the input stage instantly clips when maximum power output is reached.
How would I go about testing for this situation?

My ef86 stage needs an input of .044vrms to reach full power in the output stage when open loop and .394vrms when in closed loop.
 
... the last 3 will take a little time for me to fully grasp
The higher the open loop gain of the stage that is receiving the NFB signal, the more effectively it can amplify the error signal. The error signal being the difference between the output signal fed back to the stage and the input signal itself. By amplifying the difference signal, the stage essentially cancels out distortion introduced from within the loop--assuming it has enough OLG to do so.

IF the stage (to where the feedback signal is returned) is restricted from delivering its full open loop gain, it abruptly loses its ability to cancel distortion at some given output level. In the case of the Bogen example discussed, it prematurely ran out of OLG because the stock design had a poorly selected bias point.

How would I go about testing for this situation?

My ef86 stage needs an input of .044vrms to reach full power in the output stage when open loop and .394vrms when in closed loop.
Easiest way to check this without pencil-on-paper analysis:
  1. Lift the GNFB loop
  2. Supply enough amplitude on a sine wave input until you see clipping at the speaker terminals (with a suitable resistive dummy load connected).
  3. Check the output signal of each stage prior to the output stage. A properly designed amp will show clean sine waves (no clipping) at all stages prior to the output stage.
As was noted previously, you may have some slight drive signal imbalance that is being introduced at the inverter stage. This will manifest itself as one side of the output signal at the speaker terminals (either top or bottom) clipping before the other. This might be why you are not able to measure factory spec output power, but it could also simply be tired output tubes. It might also be the case that your EF86 stage is improperly biased causing it to prematurely run out of OLG. In the worst case, you may have multiple issues occurring simultaneously.

Also, the EF86 stage is direct coupled to the inverter. This creates a composite device where mis-biasing of the EF86 stage could cause the inverter stage to be mis-biased. I have found small signal pentodes can vary widely from sample to sample in the voltage needed to be applied to the screen grid to bias the stage properly, so an issue in this area may also be at play here.
 
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probably want to ground the transformer end of the feedback loop just to prevent any change in DC operating conditions from skewing your results here


the variability of the tubes causing biasing issues might be an argument for a CCS. Kind of considering one for an amp I have with a roughly similar design to eliminate that variable.
 
I wanted to add that apparently it isn’t terribly out of kilter though if you are measuring 68 watts out of the spec 75 watts. That’s 90% ish of spec.
 
The schematic says approximately 70 watts before clipping occurs so I think 68 is probably fine.


Easiest way to check this without pencil-on-paper analysis:
  1. Lift the GNFB loop
  2. Supply enough amplitude on a sine wave input until you see clipping at the speaker terminals (with a suitable resistive dummy load connected).
  3. Check the output signal of each stage prior to the output stage. A properly designed amp will show clean sine waves (no clipping) at all stages prior to the output stage.
With no nfb the ef86 and phase inverter are clean when the output stage clips. However at the point of output tube clipping the driver tube starts to clip and I think the power tubes are drawing grid current at that point. I start getting a voltage drop across the 6550 grid stopper 2k2 resistors. Does this seem like a reasonable scenario?

With the power tubes removed the ef86, p.i. and driver tubes can all swing quite a lot more voltage than what is needed to clip the power tubes. I am assuming they are fine.

Can I conclude that the only limiting factor in the amp is the output section and everything is actually working properly?

I feel like everything is working as it should but I wanted to use this all as an exercise to learn all that I can. I have built and repaired a few guitar amps as a hobby in the past but have recently gotten back into it. I have an oscilloscope now so I am able to see what is actually happening inside an amp which leads to more questions and opportunities to learn.
 
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