Anti-skating check

J

Jos Collin

Member
Hi,

How can I verify if my anti-skating setting is accurate? I use to set it to the same value of the cartridge Tracking Force. But how can I make sure that's the accurate setting for my turntable? I recently saw a youtube video, putting a CD on the platter and checking if the tone arm moves inward or outward and adjusting the anti-skating value. Is this good, Will this method damage my stylus?

Thanks.
 
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Jos Collin said:
How can I verify if my anti-skating setting is accurate? I use to set it to the same value of the cartridge Tracking Force. But how can I make sure that's the accurate setting for my turntable? I recently saw a youtube video, putting a CD on the platter and checking if the tone arm moves inward or outward and adjusting the anti-skating value. Is this good, Will this method damage my stylus?
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Using a cd is not a method I've ever tried, but there are various ideas around about how much antiskate is best. I used the method found in an article at Soundsmith. Their belief is that most people use too much antiskate, and they suggest the method in the excerpt below.

"If one sets the stylus on a smooth surface of a record (at the end, in-between the run out grooves) – the tip of the stylus has a drag on the surface that somewhat similar to what it would have if it were in a groove. . . Suffice it to say that it is “similar” enough for this method to work well, especially since the method was reverse engineered/calibrated properly by Frank Schroder to be correct for 30-40% record modulation [emphasis theirs]. It then becomes an easy matter to set the A-S and observe the movement of the arm. For a given VTF (any amount of VTF) – set the A-S so that the arm VERY SLOWLY drifts inwards when placed on the SURFACE (NOT IN A GROOVE) at the end of a record. You will have a moment to do this until the stylus “pops” into the run-out groove." https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge

Some records have a wider space in the run-out groove than others, and using a record with a wider space makes this method easier for me. On the arms I've tried this on, the resulting value on the antiskate setting has been considerably less than the vtf setting; e.g., an AT-LP120X needed 0.75 on the antiskate dial with a tracking force of 2.1 grams, and my Rega RP3 needed about 0.9 antiskate for a 1.35 gram tracking force. John Hunter of Sumiko is another who thinks antiskate is often overdone, and his rule of thumb is to use about 2/3 the amount of antiskate that the tracking force would normally call for.
 
jrtrent said:
John Hunter of Sumiko is another who thinks antiskate is often overdone, and his rule of thumb is to use about 2/3 the amount of antiskate that the tracking force would normally call for.
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John must be referring to one specific model of turntable and cartridge. In my opinion, this "2/3rd of tracking force" is too generalized, for every turntables and cartridges. Some cartridges I've tried appear to need only 1/4th or less of the anti-skating force, normally called for.
 
@jrtrent @Mr Boochie My cartridge Tracking Force is 3. So used to set the Anti-Skating to 3.

This is a Denon DP-30L with Auto-lift sensor. So it lifts automatically after playing the last track. So will it allow me to try out the method mentioned by @jrtrent?
 
I sent an email to Peter at Soundsmith asking the rate of travel the arm should make while setting anti-skating on a blank record. I used the unrecorded side 4 of Johnny Winter's Second Winter for this. He said the arm should move towards the spindle at a rate of one inch per two seconds.
 
kwayde said:
I sent an email to Peter at Soundsmith asking the rate of travel the arm should make while setting anti-skating on a blank record. I used the unrecorded side 4 of Johnny Winter's Second Winter for this. He said the arm should move towards the spindle at a rate of one inch per two seconds.
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Since I'm assuming that would pretty much work on a CD as well, I'll assume the thread is killed. :)

BTW, this was never really an issue for me until I bought a used AT LP120 (for playing records at my band gigs during the breaks) that had the notorious "useless" anti-skating. It caused me to do a bit of research - and I stopped caring about anti-skating. At least, not caring "much" about it. Ask any owner of the much lauded AR XA turntable (which I love, BTW) what they think about anti-skating. :D
 
Mr Boochie said:
John must be referring to one specific model of turntable and cartridge. In my opinion, this "2/3rd of tracking force" is too generalized, for every turntables and cartridges. Some cartridges I've tried appear to need only 1/4th or less of the anti-skating force, normally called for.
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Well, he did call it a rule of thumb, which means "a principle that’s widely useful but not strictly accurate in all circumstances." https://grammarist.com/usage/rule-of-thumb/

In my case, it was exactly right for my Rega, but a bit too high for my AT; however, the rule of thumb was still closer to optimum than matching the antiskate dial to the tracking force setting.

Jos Collin said:
@jrtrent @Mr Boochie My cartridge Tracking Force is 3. So used to set the Anti-Skating to 3.

This is a Denon DP-30L with Auto-lift sensor. So it lifts automatically after playing the last track. So will it allow me to try out the method mentioned by @jrtrent?
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You could try it and see. The manual describes the end-of-side lift function as triggered by sensing a change in the tonearm's velocity, not position, so maybe it will still allow a moment to see if the stylus is slowly drifting toward the spindle before the run-out groove sweeps it along. If not, you could see how you like the sound and tracking following Mr. Hunter's rule of thumb, or just play with the setting to see if you hear an improvement anywhere. I don't know how long springs last, but if your 'table's antiskate force is applied by a spring, it's possible that after 40 years it's not exactly at factory spec anymore.

I don't know that it's terribly critical (in fact, the Rega manual in its section on antiskate even says, "this is not critical"). I've been happy just using zero antiskate, using the Soundsmith method, or using Sumiko's 2/3 the vtf rule. For that matter, the arm on my Well Tempered Record Player applied some antiskate force, but it was not adjustable, so it was not anything I spent time worrying about.
 
jrtrent said:
Well, he did call it a rule of thumb, which means "a principle that’s widely useful but not strictly accurate in all circumstances." https://grammarist.com/usage/rule-of-thumb/

In my case, it was exactly right for my Rega, but a bit too high for my AT; however, the rule of thumb was still closer to optimum than matching the antiskate dial to the tracking force setting.


You could try it and see. The manual describes the end-of-side lift function as triggered by sensing a change in the tonearm's velocity, not position, so maybe it will still allow a moment to see if the stylus is slowly drifting toward the spindle before the run-out groove sweeps it along. If not, you could see how you like the sound and tracking following Mr. Hunter's rule of thumb, or just play with the setting to see if you hear an improvement anywhere. I don't know how long springs last, but if your 'table's antiskate force is applied by a spring, it's possible that after 40 years it's not exactly at factory spec anymore.

I don't know that it's terribly critical (in fact, the Rega manual in its section on antiskate even says, "this is not critical"). I've been happy just using zero antiskate, using the Soundsmith method, or using Sumiko's 2/3 the vtf rule. For that matter, the arm on my Well Tempered Record Player applied some antiskate force, but it was not adjustable, so it was not anything I spent time worrying about.
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I'd be interested in how your setups work with that Tacet test record. It's pretty sensitive. To get no distortion of the entire tracking section takes only a tiny adjustment on the Technics 1200MkII dial (this is with a stock AT 33Sa cartridge). The setting is at "0.6" of the anti-skate dial, and I set the cartridge to 2-grams tracking.

I had to play with the weights and slot positions on my SME 3009 to get the Denon 103SA (with Soundsmith NCL tip) to get through the section without distortion. I'm using a 5.5-gram hanging anti-skate weight hooked to the slot nearest to the tonearm pivot. The Denon is tracking at 2.5-grams. This setup allows the cartridge to get through the entire track without distortion. :)

tracking and anti-skate for AT33Sa (SMALL).jpg

Counterweight and anti-skate (SMALL).jpg
 
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I made a diy tonearm which I am very happy with. But got a bit lazy and didn't get around to making any anti skate solution.

Have been running it without for a couple of months now and have not noticed or heard any issues.

But I will probably make an anti skate setup soon just to be accepted by fellow audiophiles ;-).
 
About half my arms have anti skate, I’m not concerned enough to try an implement it on the others for various reasons.

@T68 I wouldn’t worry about audiophile opinions, there’s way too many dilettante audiophiles ;)

For a fun read (to those that haven’t), here’s a Korf blog on the subject:

https://korfaudio.com/blog89

VR
Andy
 
RobRoy said:
Since I'm assuming that would pretty much work on a CD as well, I'll assume the thread is killed.
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I'm not so sure about that. The coefficient of friction factors huge in the correct amount of compensation. I'd be very surprised if the coefficients of vinyl and polycarbonate plastics are the same or if one could even be substituted for another. I suppose it deserves some experimentation but I would proceed with caution before accepting the results without question.
 
ripblade is correct about the coefficient of friction issue between polycarbonate and vinyl. If you are going to use the skating on a blank disc surface test, I'd definitely recommend vinyl. The whole problem with anti-skating compensation is that there is only one definitive method of determining the correct (average) value for a given arm, cartridge and stylus. (Even the shape of the stylus tip, which affects the friction it creates in the groove, makes a difference).

That method is to set the anti-skate using a test record, which will at least get you in the ballpark, and then when the stylus wears out, check it under a microscope. If the wear flats on the tip are even, the anti-skate is correct. Depending which side (channel) is worn more, if uneven, you're either low or high with the setting.

Yeah, not the most convenient, but...

I've been setting up turntables long enough, using the above system, that I know my particular test record is accurate in this manner. Others should work, as long as they use the same principle-- progressively higher levels of modulation, with the intention of eventually making the cartridge mistrack. If the anti-skate is correct, the mistracking will be the same on both channels. An oscilloscope is best for this test, but using headphones will do in a pinch.

The skating on a blank record I've found to be unreliable-- sometimes it works, sometimes not. If in doubt, I'd generally just go with the usual bit of setting the anti-skating number to match the tracking force.*

I do respectfully disagree with those who claim that anti-skate is not important. While it is true that as long as the stylus does not lose contact with the groove while playing, it is very unlikely one will hear any problems. However, if the anti-skate is not right, one side of the record groove will wear faster than the other, and same with the stylus tip, causing both to lose useful life. Plus-- you can replace the stylus or cartridge, but... not always the record!

* The AT LP120 mentioned above is a definite exception. No idea what they were thinking with that one. Otherwise, a nice budget turntable, IMO, and plays 78's to boot.
 
Here is a method I use, and in my own opinion to great success; Choose a record with strong female vocals or with a lot of ssssss:s. Set the VTF to the proper value value for your chosen cartridge and set the anti skate to the same value. Play a song on the chosen record, best if it is the second last or last on one side. Since the anti skating is usually too high with the same value as the VTF, you will have some distortion in the left channel or the ssss:s leaning to the left channel. If not, you're good, if you do, lower the anti skate until there is no distortion in the left channel or the ssss:s stay in the center. If you get distortion in the right channel you've lowered the anti skate too much or you have a more general tracking problem. Try to raise the VTF 0.1 grams and start again.

The anti skate mechanism draws the cart outwards, thus pushing the stylus to the outer side, right channel, of the groove. If that force is too strong, the stylus will loose a little contact with the inner side of the groove, left channel. That's why there will be distortion in the left channel with too much anti skate. On my TT, with my tonearm and my cart, I end up with VTF 2.5 grams and anti skate 1.1. With another cart I had VTF 1.7 grams and anti skate 1.0.

Hope that helps, and pardon my English. It's not my first language.
 
Thanks everyone for suggestions.

Now that I understand CD is not the right thing to use. I don't have a anti-skating test record with me, neither have a groove-less record. Reading your suggestions, I was wondering which method would be quick and easy for me to check?
 
Well, in my opinion it's off course my method. Then you don't need any test records or any other equipment other than a music record with either strong female vocals or badly recorded ssss:s that expands. Follow the steps I wrote about and you are home safe. Good luck and trust your ears!
 
Classic_CJ said:
. . . I do respectfully disagree with those who claim that anti-skate is not important. While it is true that as long as the stylus does not lose contact with the groove while playing, it is very unlikely one will hear any problems. However, if the anti-skate is not right, one side of the record groove will wear faster than the other, and same with the stylus tip, causing both to lose useful life. Plus-- you can replace the stylus or cartridge, but... not always the record!
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I believe that's true for stylus wear. The Soundsmith article noted that most of the rebuilds he had done showed more wear on one side of the stylus due to excessive antiskate, and Harry Weisfeld of VPI, who once said he thought his arms sounded better without an antiskate mechanism, and so recommended tracking near the upper limit of the vtf range, acknowledged that stylus life would be reduced and recommended replacing an M97xE stylus every 500 hours rather than the up to 800 hours suggested by Shure.

While it certainly sounds logical that the same would be true of record wear, it would be nice to see some research establishing it as fact. I followed Weisfeld's recommendation for several years, getting better playback than matching the antiskate setting to the vtf, but never noticed increased wear on the left channel, nor, for that matter, any evidence of record wear whatsoever. After reading Soundsmith's article on how to set antiskate, I found the sound to be just as good using 1.35 grams vtf and the 0.9 antskate setting obtained by their method. However, no longer having a Shure dealer with a microscope in my area, I continued to change out the stylus every 500 hours just because it felt safer to me.

I don't agree with everything in it, but this little article by Villchur is interesting to read:

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/I.../HiFi-Stereo-Review-1966-07-OCR-Page-0047.pdf
 
Mandolin said:
Here is a method I use, and in my own opinion to great success; Choose a record with strong female vocals or with a lot of ssssss:s. Set the VTF to the proper value value for your chosen cartridge and set the anti skate to the same value. Play a song on the chosen record, best if it is the second last or last on one side. Since the anti skating is usually too high with the same value as the VTF, you will have some distortion in the left channel or the ssss:s leaning to the left channel. If not, you're good, if you do, lower the anti skate until there is no distortion in the left channel or the ssss:s stay in the center. If you get distortion in the right channel you've lowered the anti skate too much or you have a more general tracking problem. Try to raise the VTF 0.1 grams and start again.

The anti skate mechanism draws the cart outwards, thus pushing the stylus to the outer side, right channel, of the groove. If that force is too strong, the stylus will loose a little contact with the inner side of the groove, left channel. That's why there will be distortion in the left channel with too much anti skate. On my TT, with my tonearm and my cart, I end up with VTF 2.5 grams and anti skate 1.1. With another cart I had VTF 1.7 grams and anti skate 1.0.

Hope that helps, and pardon my English. It's not my first language.
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A song which seems difficult to track, for some cartridges --- is Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean," off the US EPIC pressing of "Thriller." QE-38112. "The child is not my son," at 1:40 is particularly difficult with a mis-aligned cartridge. You can see the AT 33Sa is really jumping around trying to track the heavy bass passages of this song. :)

Billie Jean. Off "Thriller." EPIC QE-38112. Pitman pressing. 1982.
Runout: PBL 38112-2AH P.
 
I use a test record, Then verify on a non groove side 4 of one of my albums
If the arm is stationary in the middle, I’m good, Tracking is usually 1.5/2.0 gr which is my target
 
Mandolin-- That does sound logical, you are using the same basic principle as the one I described-- making the cartridge mistrack and in this case, listening for equal distortion in both channels. As I mentioned above, headphones are preferable for this. Also, if you do not hear any mistracking on the record, try lowering the tracking force a bit, say by 1/4 gram at a time, and try the same passage again. Then up the tracking and anti-skate by the same relative amounts when returning to the proper tracking force. (Say, 1 gram / 0.7 antiskate --> 1.5 gram / 1.2 antiskate)
 
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