Anybody know what's so good about old GE cartridges

Nick_the_'Nole

Nick_the_'Nole

Super Member
...that somebody would buy several of them on eBay and pay more than $60 each for them?

I noticed this because I've been needing a replacement for my old Webcor, but every time I put one on my watch list, a Japanese buyer comes in and bids it up insanely high. The last couple I've found have been bought by the same guy.

Now, this is a 50 year old cartridge that tracks kinda heavy and probably performs about equal to the usual fare middle-end cartidges you can find for $50 new. Hell, a Grado Black can be had for $30 sometimes, and I'm sure that'd beat the crap out of an RPX-050. So... what the hell is wrong with these people?! Am I missing something, or are those buyers just completely stupid about money? I mean, I can sorta understand cult followings for tubes and speakers, and even for higher-end phono cartridges, but this is a GE that was used in console systems and was discontinued because newer ones simply work better. I just don't get it.

Sorry for the rant, just felt the need to vent my irritations...

And btw, shameless plug but I've given up on eBay as a source now, I have a want ad for one of those GE's posted in the partswap, if anyone's willing to help me out for a price I can actually afford.
 
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Well, I have a GE VRII variable reluctance cartridge that does a very nice job of transferring my 78s to the hard drive. Can't imagine why anyone would want one for stereo lp use, though.
 
Only thing I can think of is for their historical significance, inventing the variable reluctance/moving iron system.
Tom
 
I don't know why, but Nick is right on the money.
I had a couple of VR's that came with a old console I found and the Asians hit them both hard.
Not that I mind..................... :banana: :banana: :banana:
 
I use VR-II's in a vintage mono setup, and I think one reason the Japanese lust after 'em is that the sound they coax out of mono LP's from the 50's is amazing. The GE's seem to have just the right amount of compliance for mono LP's, and they work beautifully with the good (but, by today's standards, massive) arms from the 50's, as well as on changers like the Garrard RC-88. Plus, they play 78's better than most of today's magnetics. You have to remember that the majority of records in those days were mastered to be played using cartridges like the RPX series and the VR-II. They represented the upper-middle level of hi-fi that was the disc marketer's "sweet spot." If you made records that would track decently only on high-end equipment, you'd leave most buyers out in the cold. On the other hand, if you made records that were optimized for a $10 kiddie phono, you also missed most of your market (unless, of course, you were selling Peter Pan records for tots).

None of this is to say that the GE's were the best in their day (they weren't), but they were quite good, and records back then were made to withstand tracking pressures of 6-8 grams (assuming a decent cartridge and a stylus in good shape) without undue wear.


Doug E.
 
If you have a GE cartridge -- e.g. the one that uses the blue flipover stylus -- you can keep it alive indefinitely by learning to transplant the "bridge" that transfers the vibration from groove to the ceramic reeds.

* * * * *

I've long felt that the light-tracking Zenith cartridges were the best-sounding ceramic cartridges from console days.

* * * * *

The VARCO TN4B is the most widely available ceramic cartridge today. Sadly, they sound awful -- very little detail.

TETRAD cartridges, though harder to rig up because they have those difficult little plugs, do sound better.

* * * * *

Right now I'm repairing a VM changer. Properly maintained, VM changers seem to last forever. Truly excellent designs -- and Gary Stork from VM Audio Enthusiasts provides AMAZING parts support.

Fred Longworth
StereoTech Classic Audio Repair
http://www.repairaudio.com
 
Fred, they're talking about the GE Variable Reluctance cartridge, which is a magnetic (more properly, moving iron, like the Grado), low output cartridge, not a ceramic.
 
Doug E. said:
I use VR-II's in a vintage mono setup, and I think one reason the Japanese lust after 'em is that the sound they coax out of mono LP's from the 50's is amazing. The GE's seem to have just the right amount of compliance for mono LP's, and they work beautifully with the good (but, by today's standards, massive) arms from the 50's, as well as on changers like the Garrard RC-88. Plus, they play 78's better than most of today's magnetics. You have to remember that the majority of records in those days were mastered to be played using cartridges like the RPX series and the VR-II. They represented the upper-middle level of hi-fi that was the disc marketer's "sweet spot." If you made records that would track decently only on high-end equipment, you'd leave most buyers out in the cold. On the other hand, if you made records that were optimized for a $10 kiddie phono, you also missed most of your market (unless, of course, you were selling Peter Pan records for tots).

None of this is to say that the GE's were the best in their day (they weren't), but they were quite good, and records back then were made to withstand tracking pressures of 6-8 grams (assuming a decent cartridge and a stylus in good shape) without undue wear.


Doug E.
Click to expand...
BINGO! :thmbsp: Give that man a cigar! :smoke: Or a brewskie! :beerchug:
 
GE Cartridges

The other thing about GE cartridges that makes them attractive is that, being genuinely mono, there is no vertical signal, and that fact cancels out a significant amount of noise on 78 rpm records. Of course they are useless for vertically cut records. I have used the VRII on an ancient Garrard RC98 changer and the sound is good, although I am doubtful about the quality of 78 styli available today. I've got a couple NOS off E-Bay and some others of uncertain origin from other places and I would like to hear a genuine GE diamond stylus for comparison. The styli I've been able to obtain seem to have a lot of what used to be called "needle talk" I believe.

Where do those of you using GE cartridges get your styli?

Of late I've used a Pickering 380 Fluxvalve [strapped for mono reproduction] on the Garrard changer and the sound is, to my ears, superior to the GE. The Pickering is, I believe, from the early '60's.

Any 78's in good condition I reserve for my Dual 1219 with far lighter tracking.
 
I got my stylus from www.kabusa.com Seems ok, but I have only used it for transferring 78s, and anything that sounds better than my Victorola makes me happy.
 
Okeh said:
The other thing about GE cartridges that makes them attractive is that, being genuinely mono, there is no vertical signal, and that fact cancels out a significant amount of noise on 78 rpm records. Of course they are useless for vertically cut records. I have used the VRII on an ancient Garrard RC98 changer and the sound is good, although I am doubtful about the quality of 78 styli available today. I've got a couple NOS off E-Bay and some others of uncertain origin from other places and I would like to hear a genuine GE diamond stylus for comparison. The styli I've been able to obtain seem to have a lot of what used to be called "needle talk" I believe.

Where do those of you using GE cartridges get your styli?
Click to expand...

In addition to reducing surface noise, the lack of vertical compliance allows you to use tracking forces suitable for 78's (6 grams or more) that wouldn't be practical with a stereo cartridge. I've found that some 78's from the 20's and early 30's need 10 or even 15 grams to track really well. One disadvantage is that the VR's don't handle warped records as well as stereo cartridges do.

As far as I can tell, there's no rhyme or reason to the quality (or quality control) of aftermarket styli. Some are great, others are clunkers. When I put a replacement VR-II stylus in, I check the compliance and positioning of the damping blocks and the alignment of the stylus tip. Sometimes the damping blocks need to be re-cemented. Krazy Glue works just fine for this. I've rejected several tips over the years, but I've also found lots that are as good as or better than the originals. I'm currently using a really nice .7 mil replacement that has an extra damping block at the back end of the cantilever and has really low needle talk and great tracking. I've had relatively good luck with Pfanstiehl replacements, though not every sample is of equal quality. I assume you're aware that you need to center the stylus cantilever accurately between the pole pieces for best results. Once centered, the cantilever seems to stay that way, barring rough handling.

I picked up my styli wherever I could find them (eBay, old record stores, jukebox supply places). Not knowing how long they'll be out there, I laid in a supply of about 40 or 50 .7 mil or 1 mil tips and about a dozen 2.5 or 3 mil tips for 78's, all diamonds. I have a couple of original NOS GE 1 mil and 2.5 mil tips, but I'm saving them to use as references against which to compare compliance, tip alignment, etc. of the aftermarket replacements.

Doug E.
 
So it looks like the cartridge I have may work after all, because I found a supplier of replacement t-bars to hold the styli, which I previously didn't know I could still get separately. He also has all the styli I need, so I think I might go with a .7mil diamond for LP and either a 2.5 or 3mil diamond for 78. (Any recommendations between those two, advantages for either size, etc.?) He has pretty good prices too, ~$30 for the combination of t-bar and two styli.

It's a company run by a guy named Ed Saunders... Has anybody done business with him before? It looks like a good deal, and he has good feedback on his eBay store, but I wanna make sure before I take the plunge.

My only question is that he recommended a sapphire needle for 78s instead of diamond, but he didn't give an explanation why? I've heard debate about that before, any thoughts?
 
Nick_the_'Nole said:
So it looks like the cartridge I have may work after all, because I found a supplier of replacement t-bars to hold the styli, which I previously didn't know I could still get separately. He also has all the styli I need, so I think I might go with a .7mil diamond for LP and either a 2.5 or 3mil diamond for 78. (Any recommendations between those two, advantages for either size, etc.?) He has pretty good prices too, ~$30 for the combination of t-bar and two styli.

It's a company run by a guy named Ed Saunders... Has anybody done business with him before? It looks like a good deal, and he has good feedback on his eBay store, but I wanna make sure before I take the plunge.

My only question is that he recommended a sapphire needle for 78s instead of diamond, but he didn't give an explanation why? I've heard debate about that before, any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I've done business with Ed before. He's a good guy and his prices are fair. Either sapphires or diamonds are OK for playing 78's. I would use only a diamond tip for playing LP's. Though 3 mil is more or less "standard" for 78 rpm grooves from the late 20's into the 40's, I've found that a 2.5 mil tip on a VR-II will play better in some cases. Groove sizes became more standardized by the late 20's, but there was still some variation throughout the 30's and 40's. It didn't matter in those days because lots of people were still using steel or chromium or osmium needles that wore to the shape of the groove as in the old Victrola days. Sometimes a 2.5 mil tip will contact a less-worn part of the groove walls and give you better sound. The same is true of .7 mil vs. 1 mil for LP's.

After all this talk of 78's, I'll have to pull some scroll Victors and Columbia Viva-Tonals off the shelf tonight :music:

Doug E.
 
Well, you won't often hear me say, "oops," but hell -- OOPS! I have repaired maybe 25,000 turntables and changers and never had a customer bring in a GE variable-reluctance cartridge. Just goes to show that no matter how much you know, you never know everything.

Fred Longworth
StereoTech Classic Audio Repair
http://www.repairaudio.com
 
Doug E. said:
In addition to reducing surface noise, the lack of vertical compliance allows you to use tracking forces suitable for 78's (6 grams or more) that wouldn't be practical with a stereo cartridge. I've found that some 78's from the 20's and early 30's need 10 or even 15 grams to track really well. One disadvantage is that the VR's don't handle warped records as well as stereo cartridges do.

As far as I can tell, there's no rhyme or reason to the quality (or quality control) of aftermarket styli. Some are great, others are clunkers. When I put a replacement VR-II stylus in, I check the compliance and positioning of the damping blocks and the alignment of the stylus tip. Sometimes the damping blocks need to be re-cemented. Krazy Glue works just fine for this. I've rejected several tips over the years, but I've also found lots that are as good as or better than the originals. I'm currently using a really nice .7 mil replacement that has an extra damping block at the back end of the cantilever and has really low needle talk and great tracking. I've had relatively good luck with Pfanstiehl replacements, though not every sample is of equal quality. I assume you're aware that you need to center the stylus cantilever accurately between the pole pieces for best results. Once centered, the cantilever seems to stay that way, barring rough handling.

I picked up my styli wherever I could find them (eBay, old record stores, jukebox supply places). Not knowing how long they'll be out there, I laid in a supply of about 40 or 50 .7 mil or 1 mil tips and about a dozen 2.5 or 3 mil tips for 78's, all diamonds. I have a couple of original NOS GE 1 mil and 2.5 mil tips, but I'm saving them to use as references against which to compare compliance, tip alignment, etc. of the aftermarket replacements.

Doug E.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I was aware of the necessity to centre the cantilever [it can make quite a difference!] and I guess I will have to take my chances on styli since as you say, the quality can vary. I've used some stuff from Ed Saunders, generally with good results.

I too don't understand his statement to use only sapphire on 78's, and I use only diamonds with the shure cartridge on my Dual when playing 78's. I've seen one reference in a vintage audio book that stated that sapphire did not wear as quickly when playing back 78's as opposed to microgroove, which didn't really make sense.

Experimenting with the GE cartridges [I also have an RPX] has been fun and a bit of an adventure since this stuff went out of fashion before I was even born and as a result it's been trial and error. I got interested because I heard a collector's setup in British Columbia and was quite impressed. He was using a VRII on a Garrard 4HF for 78's and getting a very nice, smooth sound.
 
As far as some records "requiring" heavier tracking, this doesn't make sense. The tracking is all in the cartridge. Just because a record is a 78 instead of an LP, the grooves are just there just like the microgrooves. They don't care if they're tracked at 15 or 1 gram. Just so the stylus doesn't bounce around.

Also, if we are talking about LPs, records made back in the fifties - early sisxties would only withstand heavier tracking, as opposed to later LPs, if the compounds used in making the vinyl made the vinyl tougher. I don't really think that is the case. I happen to think that any LP won't necessarily be worn too much, even with heavier tracking forces, as long as the stylus stays in contact with the groove walls.

I have records that I played on changers with about 6 grams pressure back when I was a kid and they play fine with my present equipment with no apparent groove damage.

Doug
 
Doug G. said:
As far as some records "requiring" heavier tracking, this doesn't make sense. The tracking is all in the cartridge. Just because a record is a 78 instead of an LP, the grooves are just there just like the microgrooves. They don't care if they're tracked at 15 or 1 gram. Just so the stylus doesn't bounce around.

Also, if we are talking about LPs, records made back in the fifties - early sisxties would only withstand heavier tracking, as opposed to later LPs, if the compounds used in making the vinyl made the vinyl tougher. I don't really think that is the case. I happen to think that any LP won't necessarily be worn too much, even with heavier tracking forces, as long as the stylus stays in contact with the groove walls.

I have records that I played on changers with about 6 grams pressure back when I was a kid and they play fine with my present equipment with no apparent groove damage.

Doug
Click to expand...

I agree with you as far as LP's or 78's that were mastered to uniform standards of groove width, depth, shape, and amplitude -- in those cases there should be an optimum tracking force that's a function of the cartridge. When a cartridge manufacturer specifies a range, like 4-8 grams for the VR-II, it's based on records falling within the standards set by the industry at that time. But lots of 78's made before the early 30's have variations in all of these things, some of which occur during a given record. As a result of all this, there are times when the stylus will "bounce" or lose contact with the groove at pressures that are just fine for other records. The first Orthophonic Victor 78's from 1925 are an example; these have a shallow U-shaped groove and there are often gradual or sudden changes in groove dimensions from the beginning to the end. At that time and for several years afterwards, until electrical reproducing equipment became common, record companies were forced to compromise between the playback characteristics of acoustical phonographs made for acoustical records, acoustical players made for electrical records, and electrical players. There was a lot of experimentation around recording characteristics and overall amplitude of cut during those years.

In those days steel needles were the norm, and they were quickly ground to the shape of the groove under tracking pressures that varied from around 120 grams (acoustic soundboxes) to more than 180 grams (horseshoe magnet pickups). Under those punishing conditions, variations in groove dimensions were allowable, and perhaps sometimes done intentionally to optimize playback around those parameters. Once things standardized and semi-permanent stylus points became the norm, it was a totally different game.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but this is a topic that's fascinated me for years :D

Doug E.
 
Well, Dougie my boy (that's what my grandpa used to say to me), you do have some great information. However, don't you think that, given identical stylus shapes, two different cartridges, one, say, able to track at 2 grams and another at, say, 6 grams will track any given record the same? :yes:

I mean, if the more compliant cartridge is able to keep the stylus against the walls, it would work as well as the less compliant cartridge, I would think, regardless of the groove shape, depth, or whatever. :music:

Speaking of steel needles, they were still being used in the fifties and sixties in children's phongraphs. I remember I had one of those all-metal ones that was kind of oval shaped with an acoustic sound box. I know I didn't stick with the one-play-per-needle rule though. :D I don't know how those Little Golden Records took it. Hmmm, maybe you're right about records being tougher then. :scratch2:

This is all very interesting, by the way, and if I sounded a bit snotty above, I apologize. :naughty:

Doug G.
 
Doug G. said:
Well, Dougie my boy (that's what my grandpa used to say to me), you do have some great information. However, don't you think that, given identical stylus shapes, two different cartridges, one, say, able to track at 2 grams and another at, say, 6 grams will track any given record the same? :yes:

I mean, if the more compliant cartridge is able to keep the stylus against the walls, it would work as well as the less compliant cartridge, I would think, regardless of the groove shape, depth, or whatever. :music:
Doug G.
Click to expand...

I think there's more to it than that, but this is an area I'm still exploring. Just last month I read a great analysis of cartridges and LPs that covered not only the usual stuff about tracing distortion, pinch effect, and tracking error, but also some things I had never known about the way the elasticity of the record groove interacts with the resonances of the cartridge at various frequencies. (This was in a 1955 issue of Consumer Reports, I don't remember the month.) One of the problems is that we've never known exactly that happens at the points of contact between stylus and record groove. We do know that even when the tracking pressure is "light" (say a gram), the stylus exerts a pressure of a couple thousand pounds per square inch at the two points of contact. It's thought that the vinyl momentarily heats up at those two points to some incredible temperature, but there's been no way to measure it. Even at those low pressures, the groove walls deform slightly as the stylus plows through, and when you're talking about pressures of 6 or 8 grams, it's thought that the vinyl doesn't completely regain its original shape after playing. Among other things, RCA's ill-fated Dynagroove process was an attempt to compensate for this in a kludgy way :screwy:

Anyway, to make a long story short, very different things may be happening in both the cartridge and the record when a 2-gram cartridge and a 6-gram cartridge both "optimally" track the same record. I'm not sure that anybody knows exactly what's happening, though.

Doug G. said:
Speaking of steel needles, they were still being used in the fifties and sixties in children's phongraphs. I remember I had one of those all-metal ones that was kind of oval shaped with an acoustic sound box. I know I didn't stick with the one-play-per-needle rule though. :D I don't know how those Little Golden Records took it. Hmmm, maybe you're right about records being tougher then. :scratch2:

Doug G.
Click to expand...

That was just before my time...I was a little kid in the mid-60's and I can almost remember those little acoustical kiddie players and Peter Pan 78's. My first record player was a one-tube Phonola with the usual crystal turnover cartridge. I somehow managed to destroy the needle after three days, so the disease began early :D

Happy Listening,
Doug E.
 
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