Toblerone
Active Member
Sometimes it does. Further, maybe he swapped in another.
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Are Grado carts really this bad?
- Thread starter pluske
- Start date
Sometimes it does. Further, maybe he swapped in another.
Mine did. Took it off and put on a SME 3009 II Improved arm. Had that for many years. Upgraded to a Jelco TS-550S MKII arm. Sounds better than the 3009.
Toblerone
Active Member
Anyway...
My point being.
On the Thorens TD 16x's with TP tonearms I have always found an almost magical match whilst pairing them with Ortofons. The OM and even the 2M, wonderful. I personally do enjoy Ortofon in this mix far greater than Grado.
Grado sound good. The Ortofons sound gooder.
My point being.
On the Thorens TD 16x's with TP tonearms I have always found an almost magical match whilst pairing them with Ortofons. The OM and even the 2M, wonderful. I personally do enjoy Ortofon in this mix far greater than Grado.
Grado sound good. The Ortofons sound gooder.
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Sure it can - an improved/altered cantilever will result in a shifted resonance frequency - which can dramatically alter the sound of a cartridge.
Having said that - I have not measured the 8MZ and don't know whether the cantilever (as opposed to the needle) is any different... same cantilever = same sound ... better needle will improve detail, but not the overall sound.
I would love to know whether the XTZ needle uses a different cantilever - that might justify its price!
They are indeed immune to capacitance and to resistance loading changes - I've tested and measured it.
losthorizon
Well-Known Member
Yes, mine is fitted with the TP 16 arm and the Grado black works fine with it.
I have an 8MZ, a Blue, Green, Silver, Gold, and a G1+ to use it with, again, IT WILL NOT change the sonic signature of the cartridge. If looking for a Grado with a different sound from the Prestige line then step up to a wood body, but even here the "Grado sonic signature" is still intact, warm, full bodied, a tad laid back, etc.
In other words, if the OP finds Grado cartridges to be too laid back for his taste there's no reason for him to waste "his" money on the 8MZ when the Grado sonic signature will still remain, giving the OP misguided uninformed information does no-one any good.
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MRL_Audio
RIP 2022
Agree here. I have a Red, Green, Gold, Blue, 8MZ, an XTC stylus I picked up here, not to mention a Platinum, Sonata and too many old models to mention. I have some experience with Grado. When I put a 8MZ stylus on my Red the sonic signature DID INDEED CHANGE... and for the BETTER!. Probably the single biggest change I ever noticed with my Grado line up. The XTC is far up the line from the 8MZ and the change was not as dramatic. There was a synergy between the Red body and the 8MZ stylus. This IS informed data aimed to help the OP in making a decision... BTW did we mention you can get the Denon retipped?
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so the 8MZ made the Grado installed on bright and forward? ya I've got a bridge for sale too.
The Grado sonic signature of warm, full bodied, a tad laid back is still preserved with the 8MZ, this is unchanged, the Grado sound follows through their entire line, not a bright model in the bunch.
again, misleading the OP is doing no-one any good here.
It has already been suggested the OP contact Joseph about a retip several times throughout the thread, even given his eBay moniker as far back as post #32.
The Grado sonic signature of warm, full bodied, a tad laid back is still preserved with the 8MZ, this is unchanged, the Grado sound follows through their entire line, not a bright model in the bunch.
again, misleading the OP is doing no-one any good here.
It has already been suggested the OP contact Joseph about a retip several times throughout the thread, even given his eBay moniker as far back as post #32.
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Here is the frequency response of the Grado Gold at various loadings.... the "Grado Sound" is fairly obvious!
Note - ignore the dotted lines - I was working on an electrical model of the loading - the matching solid lines show the frequency respons of the Gold1 at various resistive loads.
It has a very clear resonance peak at around 13 to 14 khz - the second resonance is well beyond 20kHz
The cartridge is particularly load insensitive - so you cannot adjust with loading ( capacitive and resistive)
It's core characteristic is driven by the drop from 3 to 9 khz - followed by a rise in the high end, which will highlight certain types of details, imaging, space...
I wonder whether Grado ever made a "Quad" cartridge.... cos to do that, they would have needed quite a different profile...
Note - ignore the dotted lines - I was working on an electrical model of the loading - the matching solid lines show the frequency respons of the Gold1 at various resistive loads.
It has a very clear resonance peak at around 13 to 14 khz - the second resonance is well beyond 20kHz
The cartridge is particularly load insensitive - so you cannot adjust with loading ( capacitive and resistive)
It's core characteristic is driven by the drop from 3 to 9 khz - followed by a rise in the high end, which will highlight certain types of details, imaging, space...
I wonder whether Grado ever made a "Quad" cartridge.... cos to do that, they would have needed quite a different profile...
Here is the frequency response of the Grado Gold at various loadings.... the "Grado Sound" is fairly obvious!
Note - ignore the dotted lines - I was working on an electrical model of the loading - the matching solid lines show the frequency respons of the Gold1 at various resistive loads.
It has a very clear resonance peak at around 13 to 14 khz - the second resonance is well beyond 20kHz
The cartridge is particularly load insensitive - so you cannot adjust with loading ( capacitive and resistive)
It's core characteristic is driven by the drop from 3 to 9 khz - followed by a rise in the high end, which will highlight certain types of details, imaging, space...
I wonder whether Grado ever made a "Quad" cartridge.... cos to do that, they would have needed quite a different profile...
personally I don't find the Grado sound too laid back for my taste, quite the opposite and why I have so many. Conversely AT cartridges are a tad bright for my listening and thats one of the great things about vinyl playback, we can tune our systems to a sound we like.
If your phono stage supports both MM, and LOMC with loading and gain options all the better, variety being the spice of life.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
That's one of the reasons I have never gone MC. It's also why all my TT's have removable headshells except one that was just too inexpensive to pass up. I'll never do anything with the cartridge on that one anyway...
The OP has been directed to a source for retipping where this is not the case.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
I get "retipping" But that's different.
About two hours ago I ordered a replacement stylus for my ADC ZLM. Plug and play, man!
BTW, if you're interested. I bought the ZLM back in 1978 for my KD-500 (with ADC LMF II tonearm). It played into a bi-amped system through ESS AMT 1B monitors. I was a hi-fi salesman so had a relationship with the reps for all the vendors. The same guy represented ADC as well as a popular manufacturer of MC cartridges (they were fairly new at the time). He told me that, with my equipment, the MC would sound harsh. Being a young 20 something, I completely accepted his advice and got the ZLM. Looking back, it may be that he made zero money on the MC or had a couple of extra ZLM's to get rid of. I don't know. I really have enjoyed it, so I'm good, but I do see MC as the next step up regarding raw sound quality. But then, That's the way I feel about Ferrari's, but I still got a Scion FR-S and have put almost 200,000 trouble free miles on it, doing my own maintenance. I think a Ferrari might not have been a good choice for a 150 mile a day commute.
i.e. which one is better sorta depends on the user's/owner's needs and goals - and budget.
I get "retipping" But that's different.
About two hours ago I ordered a replacement stylus for my ADC ZLM. Plug and play, man!
BTW, if you're interested. I bought the ZLM back in 1978 for my KD-500 (with ADC LMF II tonearm). It played into a bi-amped system through ESS AMT 1B monitors. I was a hi-fi salesman so had a relationship with the reps for all the vendors. The same guy represented ADC as well as a popular manufacturer of MC cartridges (they were fairly new at the time). He told me that, with my equipment, the MC would sound harsh. Being a young 20 something, I completely accepted his advice and got the ZLM. Looking back, it may be that he made zero money on the MC or had a couple of extra ZLM's to get rid of. I don't know. I really have enjoyed it, so I'm good, but I do see MC as the next step up regarding raw sound quality. But then, That's the way I feel about Ferrari's, but I still got a Scion FR-S and have put almost 200,000 trouble free miles on it, doing my own maintenance. I think a Ferrari might not have been a good choice for a 150 mile a day commute.
i.e. which one is better sorta depends on the user's/owner's needs and goals - and budget.
??????
This is what you quoted and I responded to eh
"I looked into it and the cost of retipping a MC cart is close to the cost of the cart itself. I wanted to get one that is easier to change the stylus on, one of the reasons to go Grado."
your response
"That's one of the reasons I have never gone MC"
how is this different from retipping lol?
I get "retipping" But that's different.
About two hours ago I ordered a replacement stylus for my ADC ZLM. Plug and play, man!
BTW, if you're interested. I bought the ZLM back in 1978 for my KD-500 (with ADC LMF II tonearm). It played into a bi-amped system through ESS AMT 1B monitors. I was a hi-fi salesman so had a relationship with the reps for all the vendors. The same guy represented ADC as well as a popular manufacturer of MC cartridges (they were fairly new at the time). He told me that, with my equipment, the MC would sound harsh. Being a young 20 something, I completely accepted his advice and got the ZLM. Looking back, it may be that he made zero money on the MC or had a couple of extra ZLM's to get rid of. I don't know. I really have enjoyed it, so I'm good, but I do see MC as the next step up regarding raw sound quality. But then, That's the way I feel about Ferrari's, but I still got a Scion FR-S and have put almost 200,000 trouble free miles on it, doing my own maintenance. I think a Ferrari might not have been a good choice for a 150 mile a day commute.
i.e. which one is better sorta depends on the user's/owner's needs and goals - and budget.
like you I have the cartridge designed for the arm on my KD-500 installed only it's a Grace arm and cart, the synergy can't be denied. Grado woodbodies also play very nicely with the Grace G707, one day I'll send mine to Joseph for a retip.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
To retip, you send it off to someone who professionally "retips" because there are no "user serviceable parts". You can't just yank the cantilever off. It's also, like you said, almost as expensive as the cartridge itself.??????
This is what you quoted and I responded to eh
"I looked into it and the cost of retipping a MC cart is close to the cost of the cart itself. I wanted to get one that is easier to change the stylus on, one of the reasons to go Grado."
your response
"That's one of the reasons I have never gone MC"
how is this different from retipping lol?
When you replace a MM stylus, it is "user serviceable" and much cheaper. You buy one, pull off the old stylus and pop on the new one. Easy peasy.
So, to review. MC means expensive, professionally done retipping. MM means you buy a replacement stylus and snap it in.
Generally speaking, of course. Every rule has exceptions.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
Sort of off topic: My KD-500 was in storage for over ten years. When I pulled it out, the speed was erratic and the speed adjust knobs threw it all over the place. Two things fixed it completely. First, letting the turntable spin for 24 hours and, second, Deoxit on the knobs. We had to do step one on my brother's KD-750 with the same results. We just cleaned out my parent's house (my father passed at 90 the summer before last), and my brother had several hundred records in their shed from the 70's that he had completely forgotten about. The jackets are suffering from various levels of moisture warp, but the vinyl is fine...
To retip, you send it off to someone who professionally "retips" because there are no "user serviceable parts". You can't just yank the cantilever off. It's also, like you said, almost as expensive as the cartridge itself.
When you replace a MM stylus, it is "user serviceable" and much cheaper. You buy one, pull off the old stylus and pop on the new one. Easy peasy.
So, to review. MC means expensive, professionally done retipping. MM means you buy a replacement stylus and snap it in.
Generally speaking, of course. Every rule has exceptions.
first, what does any of this have to do with your response to "my comment" that the OP has been directed to a source "that isn't" as expensive as replacing the cartridge? Are you even following along with "your own" posts and comments lol?
Sure "it can be" more expensive to retip, but the last one I had done was cheaper than the price I paid for an 8MZ replacement stylus 3yrs earlier, so it can be done for less.
Sure it has to be sent off, but Joseph's normal turnaround is less than two weeks, I have no issue waiting for quality work.
Also, are you trying to explain to me how easy it is to replace a stylus? Currently I only have 7 tables and never adopted CD's over vinyl like so many, so ya I've changed a few over the decades.
RobRoy
It's just stuff - but fun
There must be some sort of mixup. I must not have responded to the post I meant to. Sorry.
I was merely pointing out that replacing a MM stylus is easier than repairing a MC stylus. I honestly thought I was stating the obvious and explaining why it is true. And I was only focusing on cost and simplicity, not turnaround time or anything like that. And it also was not a slam against MC. It was pointing out one difference between the two.