ART DJ Pre II vs Iphono and Phonomena II

[arcorob]

I think so too

Nothing wrong with being happy, but the true holy grail stages are much farther up the ladder, and really need the best systems, and carts above the OC-9s that we are running to really shine. I've been recommended the Pass Ono from a friend that has the Vendetta Research phono stage. Maybe- depends on if I decide to run more than the two tables the Tercel can run.

Its been recommended to me to get the CA MC or the Shelter MC cart...then I would nee a more expensive phono stage...well that leads to new speakers...new pre...divorce..bankruptcy...ahhh the cycle of life...

 

[bsujeep]

I think Rob should listen to Fiddle's needle drops that I linked to on the previous page. Not for the intensity or detail, although they are there, but for the absolutely mesmerizing sound stage. I dunno if I'd ever drop that kind of coin, but it is certainly an eye opener. And Fiddle says it's not just one record, but most of what he puts one the TT ... Stuff like David Bowie that he used to think was produced relatively flat as far as spatial info.

It's a simple DUAL 1219 (OK, bad choice as that table is not simple ...) and an Empire 6000 cartridge. Nothing extraordinary there, but it is quite impressive.

I was listening with headphones and it's the first time that the instruments seemed to to be in different corners of my head and outside of it a ways. Very eerie at first

Wow those are very nice cuts, the sound stage is impressive! Thanks for posting the link so others may download them. I wonder if part of the power of the recordings is that they are recorded at 32/44.1 instead of 16/44.1, I don't have a real grasp on high bit depth but I would think it would help.

As an aside I keep thinking someone is pounding on something outside with the idler thump

 

[royphil345]

I think Rob should listen to Fiddle's needle drops that I linked to on the previous page. Not for the intensity or detail, although they are there, but for the absolutely mesmerizing sound stage. I dunno if I'd ever drop that kind of coin, but it is certainly an eye opener. And Fiddle says it's not just one record, but most of what he puts one the TT ... Stuff like David Bowie that he used to think was produced relatively flat as far as spatial info.

It's a simple DUAL 1219 (OK, bad choice as that table is not simple ...) and an Empire 6000 cartridge. Nothing extraordinary there, but it is quite impressive.

I was listening with headphones and it's the first time that the instruments seemed to to be in different corners of my head and outside of it a ways. Very eerie at first

I really don't know... I think I detected a bit of a V-shaped EQ on those samples. Some phono stages seem to use that to blow up the soundstage, but I don't find them realistic sounding over time.

 

[JohnVF]

Why would a recessed midrange create a larger soundstage?

 

[royphil345]

Why would a recessed midrange create a larger soundstage?

I don't fully understand it, but it my experience it can. I've definitely heard gear that sounds "larger than life", but not so accurate. It may have something to do with the tonal difference between a source and a reflection becoming greater... or it does seem to be possible through higher gain to "stretch" the dynamic range of a recording past what was originally recorded, but usually with audible changes in tone and error in timing.

No matter what words you use to describe the sound of gear, it all comes down to consistently reproducing all frequencies at the proper level under demanding conditions from millisecond to millisecond. There's no such thing as magic. This is why I start to get extremely cautious when any sample sounds like it may not be flat in frequency response. It may sound nifty in ways, but is it correct? Do instruments sound the way they should? If not, how else could you evaluate it besides "not quite"? I have trouble saying a piece of gear does something particularly well when it's probably an artifact from somewhere else it's taking slight liberties. I can't treat them like two separate attributes. It's really just one coloration that sounds cool in a way, but not quite right in another.

 

[gusten]

I don't fully understand it, but it my experience it can. I've definitely heard gear that sounds "larger than life", but not so accurate. It may have something to do with the tonal difference between a source and a reflection becoming greater... or it does seem to be possible through higher gain to "stretch" the dynamic range of a recording past what was originally recorded, but usually with audible changes in tone and error in timing.

No matter what words you use to describe the sound of gear, it all comes down to consistently reproducing all frequencies at the proper level under demanding conditions from millisecond to millisecond. There's no such thing as magic. This is why I start to get extremely cautious when any sample sounds like it may not be flat in frequency response. It may sound nifty in ways, but is it correct? Do instruments sound the way they should? If not, how else could you evaluate it besides "not quite"? I have trouble saying a piece of gear does something particularly well when it's probably an artifact from somewhere else it's taking slight liberties. I can't treat them like two separate attributes. It's really just one coloration that sounds cool in a way, but not quite right in another.

I agree that it´s a very manipulated recording. But it´s nothing wrong with that if this is how they wanted it to be. The problem is to have any reference how it should sound, this will have a sound of it´s own with any amp.
gusten

 

[BrocLuno]

Well maybe, but ...

You'all may know that Fiddle is a professional concert musician? He does not suffer bad presentation easily. So I think the FR and SQ are probably OK ...

The other day he was listening to The Köln Concert - Kieth Jarret, and his comment was that it was the first recording he'd ever heard that sounded like a Steinway. This from a man who also professionally restores pianos and knows them inside and out. I'd take that as pretty serious confirmation that things are right :scratch2:

I'd really like to get an ART into his hands to see what he thinks about it? Unfortunately for that cause, I sent my spare to Catman for a review from Oz

 

[gusten]

You'all may know that Fiddle is a professional concert musician? He does not suffer bad presentation easily. So I think the FR and SQ are probably OK ...

The other day he was listening to The Köln Concert - Kieth Jarret, and his comment was that it was the first recording he'd ever heard that sounded like a Steinway. This from a man who also professionally restores pianos and knows them inside and out. I'd take that as pretty serious confirmation that things are right :scratch2:

I'd really like to get an ART into his hands to see what he thinks about it? Unfortunately for that cause, I sent my spare to Catman for a review from Oz

I was only talking about the recording. I don´t where to sit to get this type of sound?:scratch2:

gusten

 

[BrocLuno]

and let it run around your head

 

[fiddlefye]

I really don't know... I think I detected a bit of a V-shaped EQ on those samples. Some phono stages seem to use that to blow up the soundstage, but I don't find them realistic sounding over time.

Any EQ that was in use was either in the original recording itself or is a function of the Opera Consonance phono pre I have. It could even relate to the tube set in use, Jan Phillips. I recorded it absolutely straight with no manipulation of any sort apart from putting in the track breaks. I'm curious what you're hearing in the tracks for sure.

My complaint with so many phono pre/stages I hear is that they do not do a very good job of reproducing harmonic complexity, like eating a meal with most of the spicing removed. As Broc mentions in a post later in this thread I had a listen to Jarrett's Koln Concert and was delighted to find that the Hamburg Steinway he was playing actually sounded like one. I could hear the correct attack of the slightly-hard hammers used in such instruments for public performance and delightful sweetness of the harmonics in the middle register. I'm thinking that something you're hearing as an inaccuracy I hear as a dose of missing reality? Live music has that vibrant complexity and reproduction of it all too often lacks it for me. If this also somehow inflates the soundstage.... hmmm...

I've had the Opera stage for about three years now and for me at least the pleasure of what I hear has only grown over time. I could not say the same for its predecessor, the Clearaudio Nano. To me it was flat and unrealistic, lacking in detail and unconvincing. Over the course of a few months I grew frustrated and weary of it so it left. Maybe my expectations are just different than some?

 

[fiddlefye]

I agree that it´s a very manipulated recording. But it´s nothing wrong with that if this is how they wanted it to be. The problem is to have any reference how it should sound, this will have a sound of it´s own with any amp.
gusten

I'm not so sure the recording is as manipulated as all of that. Have you sat down midst that sort of collection of instruments and listened with truly open ears to the amazing sounds coming from them? Stravinsky was a real tonality junkie and choose the unusual combination of instrumentation for its exotic timbres. Those timbres are what I hear in the recording. When I'm playing in orchestra and hear a bass clarinet or contra bassoon those unusual sounds draw me in quickly. Too often in a finished commercial recording those get lost in the shuffle. Sit down and listen to a first generation track made with even the simplest of two track tape machines and it is all there. It seems to lie in some valuable harmonic information that gets lost in the shuffle, or so it seems to me. When I sit and hear such music up close and personal what I hear is very like what I find represented on that recording. It was clearly quite close-miked as on my system at least I can hear the sound coming from different parts of Stoltzman's clarinet in the vertical plane. By the time a hall gets involved things metamophose a bit.

 

[gusten]

I'm not so sure the recording is as manipulated as all of that. Have you sat down midst that sort of collection of instruments and listened with truly open ears to the amazing sounds coming from them? Stravinsky was a real tonality junkie and choose the unusual combination of instrumentation for its exotic timbres. Those timbres are what I hear in the recording. When I'm playing in orchestra and hear a bass clarinet or contra bassoon those unusual sounds draw me in quickly. Too often in a finished commercial recording those get lost in the shuffle. Sit down and listen to a first generation track made with even the simplest of two track tape machines and it is all there. It seems to lie in some valuable harmonic information that gets lost in the shuffle, or so it seems to me. When I sit and hear such music up close and personal what I hear is very like what I find represented on that recording. It was clearly quite close-miked as on my system at least I can hear the sound coming from different parts of Stoltzman's clarinet in the vertical plane. By the time a hall gets involved things metamophose a bit.

Yes it was really close-miked, and that is the problem for me. I do not have the instruments 10-50cm from my ears when I listen live, and also from odd directions. I understand they had some reason for doing it this way, but I´m totally for 2-miked recordings.
This is how I hear it normally.
gusten

 

[fiddlefye]

Yes it was really close-miked, and that is the problem for me. I do not have the instruments 10-50cm from my ears when I listen live, and also from odd directions. I understand they had some reason for doing it this way, but I´m totally for 2-miked recordings.
This is how I hear it normally.
gusten

Absolutely so! Sitting in orchestra this is more like what I hear, though and that is how I hear most live music. On the other hand I have played a number of other recordings on the set-up and get not dissimilar results with many of them. I'm away from home for the weekend, but maybe next week I'll make some more clips if anyone wants to hear them. Any requests? We might have a few recordings in common.

Also I found that when I got enough distance from the recording that the room started to get involved that the close-miked aspect became less apparent, blended more. Again, maybe system dependent. It really is quite cool getting impressions of my initial stages as heard in other systems. Food for thought!

BTW don't want to take over this thread, but might note that my phono pre is a relatively straight-forward passive design. Tube only for output, point-to-point wiring. One interesting feature is the separate power supply, linked by umbilical. The whole thing weighs about exactly what my Yamaha C-4 pre does. I think I once tracked down a circuit diagram for it back when I first got it, but it seems no longer to exist.

 

[fiddlefye]

Wow those are very nice cuts, the sound stage is impressive! Thanks for posting the link so others may download them. I wonder if part of the power of the recordings is that they are recorded at 32/44.1 instead of 16/44.1, I don't have a real grasp on high bit depth but I would think it would help.

As an aside I keep thinking someone is pounding on something outside with the idler thump

My apologies for the thumping! It actually almost disappears after a really long listening session like I had last night, on the order of 5-6 hours. I did the needle drops after just enough time for the tubes to warm up so it was pretty horrendous. The wheel will be heading off for new rubber as soon as I can bring myself to pull the table out of the system. It needs lots more lube work yet and some ground hum I haven't traced successfully. Work in progress....

 

[JohnVF]

Now you got me really interested in the Opera Consonance PM1. I have two systems, one is digital only but could easily have my passive preamp added so that I could add a turntable into it. What you describe with the Consonance is exactly what I felt when I went from the DB-systems DB-8 to the Juicy Music Tercel. The timbre and tonality were suddenly closer to that of live instruments. Things felt more real and I had to work less at tricking myself into getting into the performance.

 

[fiddlefye]

Now you got me really interested in the Opera Consonance PM1. I have two systems, one is digital only but could easily have my passive preamp added so that I could add a turntable into it. What you describe with the Consonance is exactly what I felt when I went from the DB-systems DB-8 to the Juicy Music Tercel. The timbre and tonality were suddenly closer to that of live instruments. Things felt more real and I had to work less at tricking myself into getting into the performance.

I'm not sure how many units they made of the PM1 or where you would find one. I've occasionally done random searches and not seen another for sale. I picked up mine off Audiogon for peanuts from a guy with amazing gear who I think just didn't have the patience to let it burn in and presumed it wasn't all that good. I have never, ever seen a piece of gear that took such an incredible number of hours to come to peace. Whether it was the Jan Phillips tube set or what, but it took weeks to get rid of the slight edge on the sound and to gain the focus it has now. It now warms up quickly and sounds absolutely consistent. I feel I lucked out and am fortunate. The funny thing is that if you read the few reviews they aren't all that glowing. I can only presume that no one ever heard one that was actually played in enough to come into its own. It made all of the difference in the world. The only other piece I have that came close in terms of burn in is my CDP after it was re-capped and modded.

The total cost of what you hear in those clips including table, cart and phono pre comes in just over $150, prime bargain territory.

 

[JohnVF]

I'm not sure how many units they made of the PM1 or where you would find one. I've occasionally done random searches and not seen another for sale. I picked up mine off Audiogon for peanuts from a guy with amazing gear who I think just didn't have the patience to let it burn in and presumed it wasn't all that good. I have never, ever seen a piece of gear that took such an incredible number of hours to come to peace. Whether it was the Jan Phillips tube set or what, but it took weeks to get rid of the slight edge on the sound and to gain the focus it has now. It now warms up quickly and sounds absolutely consistent. I feel I lucked out and am fortunate. The funny thing is that if you read the few reviews they aren't all that glowing. I can only presume that no one ever heard one that was actually played in enough to come into its own. It made all of the difference in the world. The only other piece I have that came close in terms of burn in is my CDP after it was re-capped and modded.

The total cost of what you hear in those clips including table, cart and phono pre comes in just over $150, prime bargain territory.

Wow! That was a bargain. My Tercel was the same way. Although I got it used, it did not have a lot of hours on it (very few, I believe). It sounded pretty dreadful for the first 1/2 hour, bloated bass, no midrange, etched highs, and then it began to improve slowly and it finally clicked with me about a week in. And now I prefer it to the multi-multi-kilobuck Burmester phono pre my friend uses. I thought I had maybe just gotten used to it, but then I ran my old stage for a few months and came back to it, and the improvement was instantly there, and head and shoulders above the DB-8, just not even a comparison to be made, especially harmonically.

There's a review online of some dude who bought a Tercel, instantly formed an opinion on it, listened to it one evening, and trashed it in writing, and boxed it up and sold it. Completely irresponsible and something nobody with any real experience in gear would have committed. His loss, as it was a week away from turning into probably the best phono stage he'd ever heard.

 

[Frank Sol]

Longest burn-in: Was my new Oppo 83se , took over a month putting approx 140-150 hours on her. I thought I had a bad unit. That was a few years ago , since I take burn-in seriously and usually play a new unit 24/7 for a week before turning off.

 

[arcorob]

Burn in

Longest burn-in: Was my new Oppo 83se , took over a month putting approx 140-150 hours on her. I thought I had a bad unit. That was a few years ago , since I take burn-in seriously and usually play a new unit 24/7 for a week before turning off.

And that may be why I was not that pleased with the Iphono...since my friend said try it for a few week, I think I am going to hook it to my alternate system, let it burn it while I play with the Phonomena.

I have really been thinking about how the needle drops work and their effectiveness. My thoughts are still up in the air but I figure this for now:

While they may not be exactly how they will sound on your own rig, they are comparative if all things are equal. In other words, I record at the same level, same units, etc. then they will represent at least in comparison to each other.

I thought about this when you try things in an audio room. In your own home, something may sound different, but in that setting, if you tried 3 sets of something, you would choose which you think is better for the given conditions...

we will see...LOL

 

[fiddlefye]

And that may be why I was not that pleased with the Iphono...since my friend said try it for a few week, I think I am going to hook it to my alternate system, let it burn it while I play with the Phonomena.

I have really been thinking about how the needle drops work and their effectiveness. My thoughts are still up in the air but I figure this for now:

While they may not be exactly how they will sound on your own rig, they are comparative if all things are equal. In other words, I record at the same level, same units, etc. then they will represent at least in comparison to each other.

I thought about this when you try things in an audio room. In your own home, something may sound different, but in that setting, if you tried 3 sets of something, you would choose which you think is better for the given conditions...

we will see...LOL

The needle drops are really quite fascinating. I can tell you that mine when played back through my own system sound virtually identical to listening to the original as I did repeated back-to-back comparisons of short clips before I posted them. In spite of the cheapness of the DAC etc. it manages to do th job quite well when I get the levels ok. That means that playing them in some other system given a half decent sound card should give a very good idea of how those same sources would sound on-site and that is the point to the exercise IMO. No way under any conditions can you get the same results everywhere anyway. You can maybe make some distinction though as to how a certain set of components would work with what you have existing.

I can envision a really interesting thread like this:

Collect some interested parties to participate.

Choose a few good recordings of different genres that all either have in common or would acquire.

Upload dropbox clips from each system and have a listen and discuss what we hear. What a potential learning experience! I would hope that some of the folks with really serious set-ups would be willing to participate. Exciting thought!