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Audio Technica VM8 HII cartridge with ATN12S poor performance

Backlight

Backlight

Active Member
Hi all,

I have a newly purchased ATN12S stylus (Shibata) installed on a AT VM8 HII cartridge, which in it's own turn is mounted on a PL-530x, using the original headshell. The VTA is not 100% flat, slightly leaning forward, but the VTA is not adjustable on this table (if you don't count adding a platter/raiser to increase the height of the record). I have the tracking force set at a recommended 1.5 grams and adjusted the anti-skating accordingly.

The sound kind of disappoints me. The sound is thin, without depth and on the bright side. Does not sound like solid analog to me. I also have a PL-707 which has a Ortofon 320 installed (nude fine line = similar to Shibata). This is a P-mount cartridge, but this one sounds so much richer, warmer and solid that the Audio Technica, that I just don't understand what may be causing this huge difference. Could it be the VM8HII cartridge? Is it not as good as the AT12SA, which is the original home of the ATN12S? I tried making the tonearm level using an old record raising the platter, but this does not make a audible difference.

Any comments? Suggestions?

I am willing to stick with the ATN12S since I just purchased this new. Is there another cartridge I might want to try? Since they are not sold new anymore, I will need to look second hand, I know that.

Help highly appreciated! Thanks.
 
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I had a similar experience with the ATN12S (nude as well). The difference between my Shure M91 (with a generic $9 piece of **** stylus) was night and day. The Shure was so much richer and fuller sound. The Audio technica had good detail but the overall sound was without depth and bright.

I tried the ATN12S with both an AT12E cart as well as a JVC MD-1029 Quad Cart, and the performance just didn't seem right with my Pioneer PL-112D. My only guess is that it wasn't a great match for my tonearm/system? I didn't get a chance to mount it to say a heaver headshell to balance out the effective mass, or any other setup changes.
 
Thanks jkilla. Thanks for sharing your experiences. This unfortunately is one vote into direction of selling the cart + new stylus and trying another one.

Any other thoughts?
 
I've had a similar problem and found that I didn't have the stylus seated all the way into the cartridge:scratch2:. Preston
 
Don't think that's the case in my situation... :)

BTW, the turntable is connected to a SA-9800 (Pioneer also) which has adjustable cartridge load. Changing the impedance makes a significant difference but the other setting (capacitance I believe) does not result in an audible effect.

Is there any difference between the VM8Hii and the AT12Sa? Or is it just relabeled and sold with a different higher-end stylus? I can find some specs on a VM8 on VinylEngine, but the VM8Hii remains a mystery.
 
run it in for about 10 hours using non valuable records... i use mint cheap vinyl sometimes with music i don't care for and let the stylus suspension settle under load for a few hours...then move on to older Non valuable records you're familiar with...after about 10 - 20 hours then see how it sounds..:scratch2:
 
Not to sound mean spirited but I've argued with others about the merits of putting a stylus like that on what is a entry level or run of the mill cartridge and as the saying goes, it's like putting lipstick on a pig. I tried it myself was was very disappointed.
 
That's a statement Stanton681EEES!

Do you mean there is a technical difference between the VM8HII and AT12Sa? The AT12Sa was sold as quadraphonic cartridge, but that could be completely due to the ATN12S stylus that came along with it (capable of picking up frequencies up to 45KHz if I'm correct. AT is not so informative on the differences between the cartridges that fit the vast range of 10-11-12 styluses.

So is the VM8HII a pig? :)
 
Backlight said:
That's a statement Stanton681EEES!

Do you mean there is a technical difference between the VM8HII and AT12Sa? The AT12Sa was sold as quadraphonic cartridge, but that could be completely due to the ATN12S stylus that came along with it (capable of picking up frequencies up to 45KHz if I'm correct. AT is not so informative on the differences between the cartridges that fit the vast range of 10-11-12 styluses.

So is the VM8HII a pig? :)
Click to expand...

No the VM8 isn't a pig or a bad cartridge per say but it wasn't designed with the intention of using a stylus designed for a 4 channel cartridge. The lipstick on a pig is an American expression in other words if you have a 10 cent painting and you put it in a million dollar frame you still have a 10 cent painting.
 
I gave the ATN12S another chance today, mounted it on my new Denon DP-1200, on the same JVC MD-1029 Cart

I will admit that this table has been making even my cheapo cartridges sound great, and I mean great. The overall sound just seems much deeper, richer and fuller. Not sure if it's height adjustable arm (my pioneer PL-112D didn't have this option) that was able to correct VTA/SRA issues which shibata tips are more picky about. Very surprised so far, and I'm staying up a little past bedtime just to do some more critical listening.
 
The resistance and inductance of the non 12Sa body is a whole lot higher.
The cart needs to be mounted correctly in VTA, VTF. You also might consider changing the load (resistance) on the preamp inputs down from 47K to 22K.
As the increased inductance of that body will create a very hot top end.
I have both a 12XE body (high inductance) and a 12Sa body (low inductance)
I also have both the 12XE and 12Sa stylus. Both stili sound better in the low inductance body. I don't believe the issues you are having with this are stylus ........but set up, and loading.
 
Two things come to mind. First, you're tracking too lightly; a 12S should be at 2 grams or above - that's equivalent to a much lighter force than a non-Shibata stylus. 1.5 is not a recommended level for a 12S.

Second, you mentioned that, due to non-adjustable VTA, the cart leans slightly forward. That's the exact opposite of what it should be. Line contact styli - including your Shibata - are very sensitive to rake angle. Since you can't adjust VTA, try adding a mat or something else to decrease that forward angle. You'll find that at the correct point the sound quality will increase quite a bit.

And, FWIW, I disagree wholeheartedly with the "lipstick on a pig" point of view. I have an ATN12S mounted on an AT11 and it sounds great.
 
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