Audiophile Turntables, Diminishing Returns, Honesty & Common Sense

Funky54

Funky54

Super Member
This thread is for people who love turntables and are seeking the best sound quality they can. This thread is not about digital, real to reel or best recommendations under $500.

I suppose like many others who really enjoy their vinyl and have had a journey with several turntables and synergy of system parts, you always wonder if the grass is greener. Could greater sound quality be had by upgrading my turntable? Yes, yes.. I know, more differences come from your speakers, more change from your phone or stage, blah, blah, blah. this is about the turntable itself.

Is high-end vintage better than the $3000-$7000 tables built today?

At what price point is there a huge diminishing return?

Is direct drive better than belt driven?

let’s answer these questions or at least talk about them, under the premise that in each approach you have good synergy and a good set up of table and all system components.

I compared seven or eight turntables at the same time when I made my first big investment. And I felt at the time, I purchased the best table. I’m very very happy with my turntable. But could a different turntable offer an even better soundstage? And what kind of money would I have to spend to get there? It’s my personal opinion the tables between $2500 and $5000 are pretty much the same. There are some good ones and some bad ones in that price range. But the very best $2500 one, I think sounds very comparable to the very best $5000 one. And we’re talking street price here, not MSRP. But am I wrong? Does just trying 7-8 tables side-by-side really give me the answer to say that?

What are your opinions and thoughts? Share your journey and what improvements you’ve made.
 
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I have owned a few tables over the years, and while I have not taken oscilloscopes to them I do have a few thoughts.

Turntables are an exercise in resonance management, and everything contributes to the overall sound. So drive systems matter, isolation design matters, motors matter, bearings matter, materials matter, and how its all assembled matters.

I have found excellent sound in all drive systems, and to an extent I think this becomes the area where there is the most personal preference and some of the more vigorous debates occur. Not every direct drive sounds great, nor does every idler drive, and the same for belt drive. But there are excellent examples of each drive system and I have my favorites of them. Most of them are the known commodities in audio, and there are very few if any hidden gems in the analog world at this point. Now a person may have a personal favorite that they feel is a giant killer, and that certainly is their prerogative. But Denon DP80 or 75, Garrard 301 and 401, Technics SP 10 MK II, Thorens TD 124, SOTA Sapphire, Oracle Delphi, and VPI TNTs are all great tables in my opinion.

While the table sets the foundation of what an analog system does, it does seem that after you hit a certain quality level that the differences become incremental. While my SOTA Cosmos Eclipse has all the goodies such as magnetic bearing, advanced motor controler, aluminum sub chassis, and vacuum platter, I also find that my Sheu Analog approaches that sound quality in an overall sense, but its still different. But the Scheu is an unsuspended design, uses mass and differing materials to control resonance, and its motor system is not as sophisticated as the SOTA but the effect of a large acrylic platter mitigates any speed issues. My preference is for both of these tables over a Well Tempered Reference I owned, but in all rights the WTR was excellent also but just not quite to the same level.

The issue comes to tone arms in my case. I cannot make a direct comparison of just drive units as the arm on the Scheu is unable to be used on the SOTA, and arm boards for the Scheu are about $400 apiece, so I don't have one I can cut up to try the SME V on it. But I don't need to since I enjoy both tables and feel no need to prove which is the best to me. What I do know is that when I run the same cartridge on either table the presentation is slightly different with the Scheu being more precise and clinical, and the SOTA being more expansive and vibrant. In the end the SOTA is slightly better to me, and in the context of my system, but its not by much. The reality is that they are probably neck and neck but I prefer the overall sound of one over the other.

I have had a Garrard 401, a Thorens TD 124, Denon DP75, and Technics SP10 MK II that all sounded excellent. None of them quite match the Scheu or the SOTA, but I could easily live with them. The Denon DP75 is perhaps the best value for the dollar spent in my opinion.

So those are my thoughts this month. Who knows, my perspective may change if I get a chance to experience anything else. These tables are about as much as I can afford to explore, so I have to be content with them, and that is not too hard to do.

As far as differences between $2500 and $5000 tables, I think much of the evaluation depends on the design considerations that have taken place. At the $5000 mark I think I would take a current generation SOTA Sapphire with an Audiomods arm over much of anything. I hear the value in the suspension of the table. At the $2500 mark the choices are pretty much unsuspended designs and at that point its the quality of the bearing and motor that concerns me. To be honest I can't think of much new that would excite me, but there are some interesting tables coming from China that are sold under the name Amari, who built the Hanss turntable. For under $1500 I would be looking for a used Denon DP75 with quality plinth and arm.

Mind you this is just the thoughts of a simple country pig. We like good food, warm sun, and soft hay. If you want a second opinion go talk to the cows for they are wise. Do not ask the chickens, as fowl are known liars and cheat at cards.
 
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It doesn't cost anywhere near $3000 to get a turntable that is well-built, works flawlessly, and is audibly transparent. Once you get to that point, then the sound quality is simply down to what kind of cartridge and stylus you put on it, and the records you play.

But of course playing vinyl is more than just about the sound quality, and people are willing to spend as much as they can for a turntable whose look and feel appeals to them, and for the bragging rights of a prestige brand name.
 
Removing other variables like tonearm and cartridge selection does the table add noise or “color”?

In other words focusing on the actual turntable, it’s the noise floor of the table; does it exceed the average noise floor of a vinyl LP? Does it meet industry standards for rumble and W&F? At a very definable spectrum, the actual LP will become the noise culprit….

In my opinion when a table produces a certain level of rumble and W&F levels, which are required to get the HiFi monicker, it’s then up to the individual listener to assign a subjective SQ rating.

This subjective SQ is what generates “Belt Drives are the best” “DDs can’t be beat” “Idlers rule” :rflmao:


I’m extremely pleased with each of my vintage tables and they represent each of the above types, however all have been massaged with modern technical/material updates, except the DD…

VR
Andy
 
Mister Pig said:
I have owned a few tables over the years, and while I have not taken oscilloscopes to them I do have a few thoughts.

Turntables are an exercise in resonance management, and everything contributes to the overall sound. So drive systems matter, isolation design matters, motors matter, bearings matter, materials matter, and how its all assembled matters.

I have found excellent sound in all drive systems, and to an extent I think this becomes the area where there is the most personal preference and some of the more vigorous debates occur. Not every direct drive sounds great, nor does every idler drive, and the same for belt drive. But there are excellent examples of each drive system and I have my favorites of them. Most of them are the known commodities in audio, and there are very few if any hidden gems in the analog world at this point. Now a person may have a personal favorite that they feel is a giant killer, and that certainly is their prerogative. But Denon DP80 or 75, Garrard 301 and 401, Technics SP 10 MK II, Thorens TD 124, SOTA Sapphire, Oracle Delphi, and VPI TNTs are all great tables in my opinion.

While the table sets the foundation of what an analog system does, it does seem that after you hit a certain quality level that the differences become incremental. While my SOTA Cosmos Eclipse has all the goodies such as magnetic bearing, advanced motor controler, aluminum sub chassis, and vacuum platter, I also find that my Sheu Analog approaches that sound quality in an overall sense, but its still different. But the Scheu is an unsuspended design, uses mass and differing materials to control resonance, and its motor system is not as sophisticated as the SOTA but the effect of a large acrylic platter mitigates any speed issues. My preference is for both of these tables over a Well Tempered Reference I owned, but in all rights the WTR was excellent also but just not quite to the same level.

The issue comes to tone arms in my case. I cannot make a direct comparison of just drive units as the arm on the Scheu is unable to be used on the SOTA, and arm boards for the Scheu are about $400 apiece, so I don't have one I can cut up to try the SME V on it. But I don't need to since I enjoy both tables and feel no need to prove which is the best to me. What I do know is that when I run the same cartridge on either table the presentation is slightly different with the Scheu being more precise and clinical, and the SOTA being more expansive and vibrant. In the end the SOTA is slightly better to me, and in the context of my system, but its not by much. The reality is that they are probably neck and neck but I prefer the overall sound of one over the other.

I have had a Garrard 401, a Thorens TD 124, Denon DP75, and Technics SP10 MK II that all sounded excellent. None of them quite match the Scheu or the SOTA, but I could easily live with them. The Denon DP75 is perhaps the best value for the dollar spent in my opinion.

So those are my thoughts this month. Who knows, my perspective may change if I get a chance to experience anything else. These tables are about as much as I can afford to explore, so I have to be content with them, and that is not too hard to do.

As far as differences between $2500 and $5000 tables, I think much of the evaluation depends on the design considerations that have taken place. At the $5000 mark I think I would take a current generation SOTA Sapphire with an Audiomods arm over much of anything. I hear the value in the suspension of the table. At the $2500 mark the choices are pretty much unsuspended designs and at that point its the quality of the bearing and motor that concerns me. To be honest I can't think of much new that would excite me, but there are some interesting tables coming from China that are interesting that are sold under the name Amari, who built the Hanss turntable. For under $1500 I would be looking for a used Denon DP75 with quality plinth and arm.

Mind you this is just the thoughts of a simple country pig. We like good food, warm sun, and soft hay. If you want a second opinion go talk to the cows for they are wise. Do not ask the chickens, as fowl are known liars and cheat at cards.
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Pretty great perspective. The Amari Oracle Delphi knock-off is actually on my radar to possibly replace my office rig Pioneer pl-530. The Denon DP75 is the very reason for this thread. A friend just bought one.. he’s been through at least 10 $2500-$5000 tables in the last 3-4 years. I haven't been over for a vinyl night yet, but he says “this is finally it” he literally boxed up his new top of the line Technics the same day. I’m anxious to hear it. His personality is very non committed to a strong early opinion. He doesn’t fall for the honeymoon stage, he’s never rash. In fact he almost never shares his opinion until I’ve heard and stated mine. For him to be that bold and assertive shocked me. It must be something awesome. He was unattached and only cared about sound quality of so many well thought of tables both vintage and new. For him to be this bold really gives me pause.
 
I’ve used a Japanese model DP 75 for years as my quality benchmark for other tables :thumbsup: The technical specifications for it were produced in a time/manner that actually meant something.

Denon put a huge amount of R&D into the platter mat alone, of course that R&D was for that family of tables, not just the 75.



VR
Andy
 
adnick said:
Removing other variables like tonearm and cartridge selection does the table add noise or “color”?

In other words focusing on the actual turntable, it’s the noise floor of the table; does it exceed the average noise floor of a vinyl LP? Does it meet industry standards for rumble and W&F? At a very definable spectrum, the actual LP will become the noise culprit….

In my opinion when a table produces a certain level of rumble and W&F levels, which are required to get the HiFi monicker, it’s then up to the individual listener to assign a subjective SQ rating.

This subjective SQ is what generates “Belt Drives are the best” “DDs can’t be beat” “Idlers rule” :rflmao:


I’m extremely pleased with each of my vintage tables and they represent each of the above types, however all have been massaged with modern technical/material updates, except the DD…

VR
Andy
Click to expand...
I’ve never gotten overly caught up into on paper measurements in the audio world.. John Madden once said “Statistics are like loose women, once you’ve got them ,you can do whatever you want with them.” But I also believe they are relative and important. My Roksan has a rumble of -75 and W&F of .04%. Seems comparable to thorns 125, techniqs sp10, Michelle Gyro…
 
I’m pragmatic, numbers only mean something when they are recognizable. I’m a big fan of of testing my builds at the output (edit: what gets sent to the speakers) with a good test record, appropriate track, oscilloscope and an old tube W&F analyzer.

However when noise changes are only perceptible by oscilloscope, it’s generally good enough for me:thumbsup:

It’s a fun hobby,

Andy
 
Mister Pig said:
...Turntables are an exercise in resonance management, and everything contributes to the overall sound. So drive systems matter, isolation design matters, motors matter, bearings matter, materials matter, and how its all assembled matters.....
Click to expand...

Your whole response is a gem, but this quote speaks volumes IMHO.

I have a freshly refurbed TD124 Mk1 thats a precision tank, a Technics SL-1500 Mk1 that's quite heavily built, a custom Garrard/Marantz that's also heavily built, and variety of lesser TTs including an older Dual 1215. My daily driver is an AT-LP120X that I've modded with damping of the plinth, platter, and tonearm, and it's a true sleeper with a good cart. Once the basics outlined in the quote above are tended to, SQ boils down to setup, cart, compatability, etc.
 
I believe it boils down to how good your hearing is- my audio test showed that I can't hear much above 15KHZ. I could not tell the difference between a $6,995 Rega Planar 10 with Apheta 3 cartridge and a $1,250 Planar 3 with Exact 2 cartridge, so I went with the Planar 3.... just think of all the albums I can buy with the difference in price !
 
From my limited experience it seems at around $3k there are some leaders and some losers, but of the leaders, you sorta stop hearing obvious improvements between correctly set up tables. You still hear different, but not so much improvement. When I went up chain into the $5k-$8k more of them sounded good, more percentage wise we’re leaders. But still different more than better. Now that’s a weak opinion based on a dozen or so tables. If I side by side reviewed 50 tables would my opinion change?

Some of you have played with several at many different price points, what can you share?
 
Frank Sol said:
From an individualized perspective... There are NO universal correct answers to those ^ questions

Sorry
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But even that (your response) is an answer. “It depends” is an answer, it’s not cookie cutter easy or scalable, but it is insightful. To me it means good is good, poor is poor. As for diminishing returns.. I believe with new anyway, once your over $3k with a good table set up right, your 95% there. If someone has the passion and disposable income to chase the 5%, more power to him, but that’s limited to just “my” experience. Hence the question.

I’m open minded and willing to learn from someone else’s wallet. If because of pride they say, “Nope big jump in SQ at $10k… ok, I can’t refute that, be interesting if enough verify that. Hence… the question. And that would also confirm, probably real and not ego or pride.
 
I do remember being interested in Chinese turntables - I remember looking at some that looked remarkably similar to he Amari mentioned above - not sure if actually same brand, I assume same design can be built by different companies. Looking for them I found

https://www.hiendchina.com

is this a reliable/trusted place to get them? Are there better options?

Thanks!

v
 
adnick said:
I’m pragmatic, numbers only mean something when they are recognizable. I’m a big fan of of testing my builds at the output (edit: what gets sent to the speakers) with a good test record, appropriate track, oscilloscope and an old tube W&F analyzer.

However when noise changes are only perceptible by oscilloscope, it’s generally good enough for me:thumbsup:

It’s a fun hobby,

Andy
Click to expand...
I've never built a table but I've had plenty on the bench. When it comes to scopes and turntables... put on a test record, thinking the Shure, and watch any of them make hash of the dual traces of the scope, at ten khz the traces walk all around each other. This isn't about higher end tape decks, or signal generators, or CD test output but either of them will super impose over each other, the reel to reel will walk a little bit but not much, cassettes vary considerably by quality of the deck with some being quite good. There are just too many mechanical variations happening and it always left me impressed by how good they sound and made clear why good pre recorded tape was the best. The subject is diminishing returns with high end, read expensive tables, and I have to agree.
 
Just a few more observations. From what I hear the higher the performance level of the analog component the more the differences get minimized between them, and in the end the sound is closer to the same than different. I always suspected this is because these pieces are more faithful to the recorded material, and therefore the aberrations that occur from compromises in the equipment are removed, and that is what we hear as differences.

As mentioned, I have a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse with SME V, and a Scheu Das Lauftwerk No 2 with Dynavector DV505 arm as my tables, and both tables feed an Esoteric E-03 phono stage that allows for two inputs and independent cartridge loading.

Now last week I got back two cartridges from VAS Audio as they needed new diamonds. Both retained the stock cantilever, but got diamonds, a cleaning, and adjustment. Last night I installed the Transfiguration Proteus on the SOTA, and tonight I put the ZYX 4D on the Scheu Audio. As I move a record between the two tables I have to make a slight volume adjustment because of the output level of the cartridges, but in the end these two analog rigs so very similar that I have to wonder if it makes any sense to own both of them. I wonder to myself " are these combinations really that close?" or the thought that creeps in is "does the rest of my system have limitations that obscures the differences?" At this time that is not a question I can really answer. Perhaps my tables have outstripped the rest of my system, or perhaps they really are so very similar. The next question is if I were to sell both and step up to a Walker Proscenium that is for sale about 2 hours from me, would there be any performance gains to be had?

I really cannot answer these questions with any kind of certainty. What I do know is that the ZYX 4D and the Transfiguration Audio Proteus extract a noticeable level of information out of a record that the Audio Technica OC9XSH I have here cannot do. Now the OC9XSH is a fine sounding cartridge, and the quality of music you get for $650 is crazy good. I use it as a casual listening cartridge, and I enjoy my time with it. But I cannot say it approaches either o of these other two cartridges in terms of sound quality. But those cartridges cost a great deal more, so that is to be expected.

I don't know if this post answers any questions, helps anyone on their journey, or provides any insights. All I can say is I am listening to the Scheu turntable with the ZYX and think I can be happy with this. Then I move the record over to the SOTA and think its really not much different and I can be content with this too. Yet the way each tables approaches the challenge of playing records is totally different, with different design philosophy, materials, and construction techniques. I guess I just get to sit back and listen to some good tunes and count my blessings to have a couple of excellent machines available to me.
 
The “sound” of a given TT has sooooo many variables and dependencies to the point where it has almost become as subjective as evaluating speakers.
  • Which TT are you using?
  • What kind of tonearm is in said TT?
  • How heavy is the base?
  • What kind of material is it made of?
  • Is it a direct drive, belt drive or an idler wheel?
  • Where is the TT placed and what kind of isolation does it have from it’s environment?
  • What kind of cartridge(s) are you using and what is the quality of the wiring in the tonearm?
  • And (don’t get me started on this one but..) how good is the phono preamp that is being used?
My point is that the when one spends a fair amount of money on a TT, it can be beautiful to look at but, there’s a lot more to consider.

To be clear, I am not stating anything that most AKer’s don’t already know, have not considered or, thought about. It’s just that there’s more to it than spending the $’s,
 
Mister Pig said:
Just a few more observations. From what I hear the higher the performance level of the analog component the more the differences get minimized between them, and in the end the sound is closer to the same than different. I always suspected this is because these pieces are more faithful to the recorded material, and therefore the aberrations that occur from compromises in the equipment are removed, and that is what we hear as differences.

As mentioned, I have a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse with SME V, and a Scheu Das Lauftwerk No 2 with Dynavector DV505 arm as my tables, and both tables feed an Esoteric E-03 phono stage that allows for two inputs and independent cartridge loading.

Now last week I got back two cartridges from VAS Audio as they needed new diamonds. Both retained the stock cantilever, but got diamonds, a cleaning, and adjustment. Last night I installed the Transfiguration Proteus on the SOTA, and tonight I put the ZYX 4D on the Scheu Audio. As I move a record between the two tables I have to make a slight volume adjustment because of the output level of the cartridges, but in the end these two analog rigs so very similar that I have to wonder if it makes any sense to own both of them. I wonder to myself " are these combinations really that close?" or the thought that creeps in is "does the rest of my system have limitations that obscures the differences?" At this time that is not a question I can really answer. Perhaps my tables have outstripped the rest of my system, or perhaps they really are so very similar. The next question is if I were to sell both and step up to a Walker Proscenium that is for sale about 2 hours from me, would there be any performance gains to be had?

I really cannot answer these questions with any kind of certainty. What I do know is that the ZYX 4D and the Transfiguration Audio Proteus extract a noticeable level of information out of a record that the Audio Technica OC9XSH I have here cannot do. Now the OC9XSH is a fine sounding cartridge, and the quality of music you get for $650 is crazy good. I use it as a casual listening cartridge, and I enjoy my time with it. But I cannot say it approaches either o of these other two cartridges in terms of sound quality. But those cartridges cost a great deal more, so that is to be expected.

I don't know if this post answers any questions, helps anyone on their journey, or provides any insights. All I can say is I am listening to the Scheu turntable with the ZYX and think I can be happy with this. Then I move the record over to the SOTA and think its really not much different and I can be content with this too. Yet the way each tables approaches the challenge of playing records is totally different, with different design philosophy, materials, and construction techniques. I guess I just get to sit back and listen to some good tunes and count my blessings to have a couple of excellent machines available to me.
Click to expand...
Mr Pig, those are both beautiful looking tables. And as you state completely different materials, designs and approaches. Either is more than double the price point of where I exist and rather than any jealousy, I’m excited hearing your opinion, because I want to believe that with greater investment there are greater gains. Could you share with us some of your path? Sonic milestones and how you got to this point in regards to tables? I’d like to know, if I went up in cart (current AT33SA) would I hear noticeable welcome improvement (not just different) or would my table at that point hold me back? In other words, If I brought a good $3500 table to your system, installed a cart of that caliber with synergy to the given arm, what difference would there then be? Many have stated it’s about the entire system… of course, and the sky is blue. I’m trying to determine the impact of the table alone. Your first contribution to this thread touched on these conversation points, I guess I’m looking for a little more expansion to see what other diamonds are hidden under the pig blanket.
 
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