Azimuth and Zenith adjustments required??

[Dogman]

I have read through many AK posts on turntable setup and have read more then a few articles on the web, but while I have picked up lots of great info on proper setup, I can't seem to find an answer to this simple question.

If a cartridge body is designed to accept screws for attaching to the headshell (i.e., the screws go directly into the cart without the need for nuts, washers or other mounting hardware) then wouldn't this design lock the cart in a perfectly square position and remove the need for adjustments to azimuth and zenith?

The cartridge in question is a Benz Wood H2 and the headshell is from a Yamaha PF-1000 table.

Thanks all!!

 

[markd51]

I have read through many AK posts on turntable setup and have read more then a few articles on the web, but while I have picked up lots of great info on proper setup, I can't seem to find an answer to this simple question.

If a cartridge body is designed to accept screws for attaching to the headshell (i.e., the screws go directly into the cart without the need for nuts, washers or other mounting hardware) then wouldn't this design lock the cart in a perfectly square position and remove the need for adjustments to azimuth and zenith?

The cartridge in question is a Benz Wood H2 and the headshell is from a Yamaha PF-1000 table.

Thanks all!!

Yes, if this were true, but most Headshells are Slotted. One exception might be using a Rega Cartridge on a Rega Tonearm-Headshell, which can be mounted with three screws, thus locking in Overhang, and Zenith Angle.

Still, with even that being said, there's no Cartridge made in the world, that can absolutely guarantee that the Cantilever is absolutely square with the Cartridge Body.

The other reason for a slotted Headshell, is the need to achieve correct Stylus Overhang with any given Arm.

While using the Cartridge Body to align to a Protractor Grid, you "might" get close, but still, definitely no Cigar in any case. The proper way, will be to align the Cantilever itself to the Protractor Null Grid.

Granted, one of the Cartridges I own, is a very similar Cartridge, with basicaly the same shaped body, the Benz Ruby 3, and while the front is square, and will help initially align the Cartridge to grid, the sides of body "bulge-bow out" from being prefectly square, and will not be an aid.

A good protractor is a must if you wish to squeeeze every last bit of performance from your Cartridge.

Some use free Downloadable Protractors from vinyl engine.com. Better than nothing, but a good Cartridge-Arm-Stylus does deserve much better.

Another relatively inexpensive way out, and best bang for the dollar, is the very good Mirror Protractor from Turntablebasics.com, which will set you back about $20, plus shipping. The Mirrored Surface will also serve another purpose, by being able to view Azimuth Angle of the Stylus. The mirror will show a reflection of the Stylus as it rests on the mirror.

This is of course not the very best way to check Azimuth, but is the easiest-fastest. Some use a Pencil Lead taped across the top of Headshell as another reference check, but the best way I understand, is with multi-meter, checking output of each channel.

The Benz Cartridge you have is a very good one. If you want the best from it, do use a good, reputable Protractor. I've just recently ordered, and recieved the Mintlp Mirror Arc Protractor, from Yip in Hong Kong.

At current, the price is $110, but many are noticing huge gains with thier systems with this Protractor. Said to be one of the very best available right now.
With this Arc protractor, one must exactly know what the Spindle-Pivot Distance is of the Tonearm, and should confirm this spec-measurment with a precise confirmation of distance. Also, I should mention, this protractor will work for only one S-P Distance, uses Baerwald Null Geometry. I've yet to use mine, just getting it yesterday, but will soon.

The Turntable Basics Protractor is a sight line type, will work for a multitude of Tonearms, regardless of S-P distance, and as well, uses Baerwald Null Geometry.

I hope this helps, and if you have any other questions, do feel free to ask. I, or someone else will help to answer any questions that you have. Mark

 

[Letitroll98]

Also available for quite a bit cheaper are the DB Systems protractor, quoted in Stereophile as "a bit fiddly, but nevertheless accurate" for $49 everywhere, or the GeoDisc, again widely available and I think also $49. You can also use the very nice glossy paper protractor included in the HiFi News & Record Reviews LP, and you get a great test LP in the bargain.

 

[markd51]

I have read through many AK posts on turntable setup and have read more then a few articles on the web, but while I have picked up lots of great info on proper setup, I can't seem to find an answer to this simple question.

If a cartridge body is designed to accept screws for attaching to the headshell (i.e., the screws go directly into the cart without the need for nuts, washers or other mounting hardware) then wouldn't this design lock the cart in a perfectly square position and remove the need for adjustments to azimuth and zenith?

The cartridge in question is a Benz Wood H2 and the headshell is from a Yamaha PF-1000 table.

Thanks all!!

I would also like to add, that I am uncertain whether Baerwald Geometry, with its Null Points will be ideal for your particular set-up? Since you mention a Yamaha PF-1000 headshell, I'm going to assume as well, it's a Yamaha Table, and perhaps a Japanese Arm as well?

If so, then I'm hoping our forum guru Howard (HaKaplan) will chime in, with some beter advice than I can about the Table you have? It is very possible, that Stevenson Null Geometry may be better suited for your particular Turntable? Mark

 

[niklasthedol]

Now............. I do some terristrical navigation when travelling on my sailing boat, and from there I take that the angles of azimuth would be horizontal tracking angle (the difference between the groove direction and the cartridge pointing direction) and zentih would be the vertical tracking angle (the angle of the stylus on the surface of the LP).

If the arm has two slots for the screws to tighten the cartridge with this would be the azimuth/horizontal tracking angle.

VTA (vertical tracking angle) is depending on the hight of the arm in the base and the hight of the platter or mat on the platter in combination.
In this matter Rega arms are PITA. You need shims to adjust it. Many other arms have VTA adjustment by a threaded nut. Few arms even have VTA adjustment on the fly.

I do not know the arm you use (or I didn't pay attention to what you wrote about that) but I guess, when you go for a cartridge of the quality of yours, you have a fairly good TT with an arm able to be adjusted fully.

I can recommend Clearaudio's protractor as shown here:

I used it for allignment of Benz Micro L2 on a Dunlop Systemdek IV with Rega RB700 with great succes.
In this protractor every parameter need adjustmenst is thought of.

The Benz cartridge of yours deserve it.

"dolph"

 

[markd51]

Now............. I do some terristrical navigation when travelling on my sailing boat, and from there I take that the angles of azimuth would be horizontal tracking angle (the difference between the groove direction and the cartridge pointing direction) and zentih would be the vertical tracking angle (the angle of the stylus on the surface of the LP).

If the arm has two slots for the screws to tighten the cartridge with this would be the azimuth/horizontal tracking angle.

VTA (vertical tracking angle) is depending on the hight of the arm in the base and the hight of the platter or mat on the platter in combination.
In this matter Rega arms are PITA. You need shims to adjust it. Many other arms have VTA adjustment by a threaded nut. Few arms even have VTA adjustment on the fly.

I do not know the arm you use (or I didn't pay attention to what you wrote about that) but I guess, when you go for a cartridge of the quality of yours, you have a fairly good TT with an arm able to be adjusted fully.

I can recommend Clearaudio's protractor as shown here:

I used it for allignment of Benz Micro L2 on a Dunlop Systemdek IV with Rega RB700 with great succes.
In this protractor every parameter need adjustmenst is thought of.

The Benz cartridge of yours deserve it.

"dolph"

Incorrect Dolph, you got it backwards, just wanted to make a correction.

In regards to Cartridges, Azimuth Angle, will be the Angle the Stylus sits, when looking from the very front of the Cartridge. The Stylus must not tilt to the left or, right, and must be exactly straight up, and down. No matter what Arm (Linear, or Pivotal), what Cartridge, all Stylus' must be positioned exactly the same, perfectly straight up, and down in regards to the groove. Some Arms-Headshells have provision for this adjustment, but many do not.

Zenith Angle is the Angle in which the Cartridge-Cantilever is aligned in relation to be parallel to the grooves on a record, and Zenith Angle can be adjusted on most Tonearms-Headshells due to the Screw Slots. Of course on all Pivotal Tonearms, one can only ever achieve perfect Zenith Angle at two places on the LP, everywhere else, there will be Zenith Error.

Whether S-Shaped Arm, with Straight Headshell, or Straight Arm, with Offset headshell, one will generally find that the Cartridge needs to be squarely mounted to the Headshell, not twisted one way, or another. There can be slight variance in this regard, dependent upon what Null Geometry one uses.

Sorry to side-track this thread from the original poster, but VPI, and Pete Riggle do make VTA Adjusters for the Rega Arms. The Riggle Device is called the VTAF, and permits on the fly adjustments from any Rega Arm currently made. Mark

 

[niklasthedol]

Thank you for the correction.
I guess that TT producers don't do much navigations using star or sun angles.

The Zenith angle, in which the Cartridge-Cantilever is aligned in relation to be parallel to the grooves on a record, can in fact be a two point adjustment or a one-point adjustment.

For sure Azimuth angle, as you describe it, has to be perfectly vertical 90 degrees on the surface.

Thank you for letting me know about the option of adjusting VAT on the fly on RB arms.
By the way, I don't find a 90 degree angle of the stylus (seen from the side) necessarily the only rigth way to do it here.
I find it sounding slightly better on some cartridges when lifting the arm just a squeeze more than that.

I still recommend the ClearAudio device from the picture.
Odd, by the way, since I realy dislike the sound from Clear'Audio TT's and PU's.

"dolph"

 

[vinyl1]

In regards to Cartridges, Azimuth Angle, will be the Angle the Stylus sits, when looking from the very front of the Cartridge. The Stylus must not tilt to the left or, right, and must be exactly straight up, and down. No matter what Arm (Linear, or Pivotal), what Cartridge, all Stylus' must be positioned exactly the same, perfectly straight up, and down in regards to the groove. Some Arms-Headshells have provision for this adjustment, but many do not.

This assumes that the engine inside the cartridge is correctly aligned. The purpose of azimuth alignment is to center the image between the speakers by maximizing channel separation.

If the coils and magnets inside the cartridge are not exactly in line with the stylus and cartridge body, the position for maximum channel separation may not look quite square.

 

[melofelo]

i seldom rely on just squaring the cartridge to the headshell for the exact reason above... the complete stylus assembly is often at a slight angle to the cartridge body..

assuming the working transducer within the body is fairly well aligned in terms of the cantilever & magnet within the electro-magnetic field of the coils..or vice vera for MC...then it is the cantilever itself that needs to be as close to parallel with the line that runs through the null point the diamond sits on...once you've fiddled with overhang that is...

( even then..simply adding or subtracting downforce can also shift this subtle alignment within the cartridge body which we have no real means or measuring...and this is something a certain astute vinyl fan stumbled upon by way of suggestion whilst trying to pinpoint the real reason for VTA's 'apparent' effect on sound ...but i wont go into that here )

nonetheless...assuming we can rely on the cartridge manufacturers tolerances...

you can usually single 'eyeball' it well enough to get the left & right output 'pretty close' to the cartridge's channel balance tolerances..give or take a decibel or so...

i usually make a few recordings from a mono record at a location close to both null points and push the recording levels close to zero on a domestic minidisc recorder..which has on its led meter scale a final display resolution segment indicating
-0.5db before hitting the '0db' overload segment...

obviously i'm relying on the accuracy of the meters..but usually over several records both left and right channel peaks will pretty much 'dance together' as if they are a single channel...

if it then sounds good as well 'looks' fairly even..time to tighten up and obsess over tracking force and anti skate next...

 

[Dogman]

Thanks for all the great feedback!

Mark - the turntable is a complete mint condition Yamaha PF-1000 with a dual pipe straight tonearm. The Yamaha headshell is not slotted for screws; rather it has a separate arm pick up (a small plastic piece) with two holes that the screws insert through. The arm pick up sits over top of the head shell and connects to the Benz with two screws which go right into the body of the cart (hence little room for play). The arm has adjustable VTA through one hex screw at the base of the tone arm. The VTA is currently set for a neutral position (level tonearm front to back) but I'm not sure this is the optimal setting for this cart/tonearm combination.

In terms of protactors, I have used the Enjoy the Music free paper version with limited results while I await delivery of the Turntable Basics mirrored template. I am aligning the cart using the placement of the diamond stylus on the grid lines of the template and not using the cart body for alignment.

Interesting the comments on stylus assembly/cantilever not necessarily being square/aligned with the cartridge body. This is the case with my Benz Wood cart. When looking from the front, the cantilever has a noticeable lean to the right and is not aligned with the centre notch at the front of the body. Now my head shell/cartridge combo would seem to be an issue as I don't have the inherent play in a slotted headshell to correct the cantilever offset. About the only way that I can think of adjusting azimuth in with this combo would be to use tiny shims (maybe the small paper remnants from a hole punch?) in either side to change the angle that the stylus hits the record groove.

I'm just getting back into vinyl, and while I am enjoying the experience, it sure has been a time consuming one!!

Thanks again for all of your thoughts. I will post a pic of the set up tonight.

Barry

 

[hakaplan]

See next post.

 

[hakaplan]

First of all, Yamaha used Stevenson geometry. The enjoythemusic and turntablebasics use Baerwald (and you'll likely be waiting a while for the tb one to arrive anyway). If you're using an original Yamaha headshell, you won't have enough room to position the cartridge if you use Baerwald. The piece that sits over the top of the headshell will slide forward or back on the headshell when the screws are loose. That takes the place of the slots for allowing movement. Go over to vinylengine.com and download the Stevenson protractor. You'll be in business before you know it.

 

[Dogman]

Thanks for the info Haka, I will download the Stevenson version and give it a go. I did use the Enjoy template though, and had no difficulty adjusting the overhang on the Yamaha head shell so as to land the stylus on the line intersection of the two null points. And lots of room to spare in terms of further overhang adjustment.

For those of you that are having difficulty following this conversation, I have attached a picture of the cart/head shell set up. It's not the highest quality pic but I think you'll get the idea.

Haka, will the Stevenson geometry yield significantly better sonic performance?

Barry

 

[markd51]

Howard, Thank you again my friend for bailing me out! lol Once I got wind of Dogman's Table perhaps being of Japanse issue, I knew I perhaps gave him initial erroneous advice.

I'm going to go off on a rant here, and ask, why doesn't more makers provide a different Null Geometry than Baerwald!? I'm almost sick of hearing it!
People like Mo-Fi, with thier Geodisc, the makers of the TB Mirror Protractor, and even Yip in Hong Kong making the Mintlp Protractor should be able to provide whatever Null Geometry an end user desires. This is NOT all that hard to do.

BUT, all is not lost! Do contact a very helpful person online, who's name is Ken Willis. Once Ken knows your S-P (Spindle-Pivot) distance, Ken can make a Arc Protractor, and provide 3 different Null Geometries on the very same Protractor, with three different Arcs, and Nulls Points. These usually being Baerwald, Stevenson, and Loefgren. (see if Vinylengine has the specs for your Arm-Table) He calls it his Acutrac Protractor. If you ask him, he will send you first, a printable Protractor, which, even though is meager, will probably find works better than 95% of what's out there.

Ken can be easily found on the Audio Asylum in the Vinyl Section, and I can vouch for him, that he is one very nice guy who will help you.

I'd like to further add, that you may find a unique set of Null Points for your particular Arm at Vinylengine.com It's worth a look. It is very possible that Ken can make a protractor with these exact Null Points.

Dogman, There must be some adjustability of overhang. Many Cartridges possess different length Cantilevers, and Specs. And, all "try" to achieve proper SRA (Stylus Rake Angle) with the Cartridge riding exactly level with the LP's surface, but some vary, therefore, VTA adjustments from dead level can make good notable sound improvements on many Cartridges. So many Benz owners I have read, like thier Arms ever so slightly tail down at the rear. Mark

 

[hakaplan]

Thanks for the info Haka, I will download the Stevenson version and give it a go. I did use the Enjoy template though, and had no difficulty adjusting the overhang on the Yamaha head shell so as to land the stylus on the line intersection of the two null points. And lots of room to spare in terms of further overhang adjustment.

For those of you that are having difficulty following this conversation, I have attached a picture of the cart/head shell set up. It's not the highest quality pic but I think you'll get the idea.

Haka, will the Stevenson geometry yield significantly better sonic performance?

Barry

Barry and Mark,

Actually it's no problem using the Baerwald as long as you have room on the headshell, but my experience has been that the original Japanese headshells don't offer enough room to push the cartridge that far forward. From what you're describing, this headshell does not have that limitation. Also Stevenson will result in the cart being perfectly square in the headshell while Baerwald will likely cause it to sit tilted. In the end, it's a matter of personal taste--try both and compare. I can't tell the difference on my Pioneers and so I use Stevenson because it looks better.

Mark, the reason they don't offer Stevenson protractors is that they are gearing their marketing toward owners of current turntables, not vintage ones. With the resurgence in interest in vintage (thanks to AK in large measure) maybe we need to start a company for that.

 

[Dogman]

Howard/Mark, thanks again for your input and advice! I'm learning quickly that fine tuning for vinyl is a lifelong pursuit!!

As info, I have aligned the cart with the ETM (Baerwald) paper template and it resulted in moving the cartridge in (reducing overhang) from where I had it set using the simple plastic jig included with the table. The sound is much improved, but now I'm wondering whether one of the other methods will yield even better results. I'll check it against the TB template when (or if?) it arrives.

I have not yet experimented with different VTA or VTF settings or isolation techniques. Have to save some time for listening too!!

Barry

 

[markd51]

Barry, I'm only hoping that my preliminary suggestions hadn't steered you to buy the Turntable Basics Protractor, because I do now feel that this Protractor may not provide optimum results for you.

But, as Howard says, you can try it. As I mention previously, it would be nice if somebody like Turntable Basics would market an inexpensive Sight Line Mirror Protractor with Stevenson Null Geometry.

Of course there's the Wally-Tractor, regarded as one of the best, but I think this one goes for about $150, and they claim one waits forever to get one from Wally.

If the TB Protractor doesn't do it for you, my only suggestion then, is to either keep it for future use with a Table-Arm that will be suitable for Baerwald geometry, possibly sell it, or ask Turntable Basics if you may return it for Store credit?

If you can find the Tonearm Specs for your Table's Arm over on VinylAsylum, and find out what the Spindle-Pivot Distance is, or find the overall Tonearm Length, and Overhang Specs, just subtract Overhang Spec from Overall Tonearm Length to find S-P Distance.
You may also find the factory recommended Null Points, which may possibly even vary from Stevenson Geometry?

As for the Benz Cartridges, as I've owned two in my life, virtually all Benz Cartridges made, past, or present have always been very good tracking Cartridges. With regards with VTF, and Zenith, they seem somewhat forgiving with very slight errors.

My findings are they are not so forgiving with VTA Adjustment. Usually running Tonearm tail high will produce a thin sound, and loss of Bass Response.

All Cartridge makers strive to properly set Cantilever Angle, so that correct SRA (Stylus Rake Angle) can be achieved with level VTA within the prescribed range of VTF, but Cartridges, such as the Benz, you may find improved performance by slightly changing from Level VTA, and in instances prefer an Arm that is ever so slightly tail down at the rear. It's of course not the eye that makes this fine tuning adjustment of proper VTA-SRA, but the ear. There's no set in stone setting. Just remember that adjustments in VTA will alter both VTF, and also Stylus Overhang-Alignment. Anytime making a VTA Adjustment, these other adjustments will have to be checked-corrected.

Still, with that being said, drastic VTA adjustments are usually not needed. The optimum VTA adjustments will probably only veer ever so slightly from a dead level Arm-Cartridge.

Most Benz Cartridges have a VTF Range of 1.8g-2.2g. A middle of the road adjustment of say 2.0g should be quite suitable. Of course experimentation here can reap benefits as well, but remember it is not good to use the philosophy that light is good, and lighter is even better, if it results in mis-tracking, which will harm-damage the LP's Groove.
Mark

 

[winegasman]

Everyone's Helpful

My .02 -- hakaplan and others here have been very helpful to me in the past as I tried, like you, to come to terms with the difficulties and rewards of cartridge adjusting. I have a Yamaha YP-D8, also based on Stevenson, and I spent considerable time trying to get the Stevenson alignment correct. In my case, I found that using Stevenson resulted in having to push the cart to the back of the headshell slots, so much that they were jamming into the wires.

Someone on AA pointed me to member kwillis and, as has been mentioned, he was amazingly friendly and helpful. He sent me paper arc alignment sheets for both Stevenson and Baerwald. For free!

There are some on AA who strongly advocate Baerwald no matter what the manufacturer's original alignment was. I don't know anything about their math, but they make strong arguments, so I tried Baerwald on my set-up. For me, it worked better than Stevenson because it bought me a bit more room at the back of the headshell -- moving the cart about 1/16" - 1/8" forward. It also results, as has been noted, in a slight turn of the cartridge, so that the front of the cart is ever so slightly closer to the spindle than the rear of the cart.

Does it sound better? Too subjective to call. Both Baerwald and Stevenson, when accurately employed, make my analog system sing! I'm set for Baerwald now, but for the crunching wires reason, not for musical reasons.

Incidentally, kwillis will prepare a hard (plastic?) version of his (your table's) arc protractor for, I think, $50. And he can inscribe up to, I think, four arcs on it. I'll be ordering my permanent one any day now, with a Stevenson arc and a Baerwald arc. You should definitely seek his assistance.

Good luck.

 

[vinylengine]

The enjoythemusic and turntablebasics use Baerwald

Actually the enjoythemusic protractor is an oddball as it doesn't use Stevenson, Baerwald or Loefgren. It uses null points chosen by ear to suit the designer's turntable/tonearm/records and if used as directed (stationary) it's only really suitable for a 222mm tonearm mounting distance - the more your arm differs from this length the more difficult it will become to align at both points. If used as a normal two-point protractor (ignore the fixed angle) you'll get null points at 72.9mm and 126.8mm

 

[hakaplan]

My .02 -- hakaplan and others here have been very helpful to me in the past as I tried, like you, to come to terms with the difficulties and rewards of cartridge adjusting. I have a Yamaha YP-D8, also based on Stevenson, and I spent considerable time trying to get the Stevenson alignment correct. In my case, I found that using Stevenson resulted in having to push the cart to the back of the headshell slots, so much that they were jamming into the wires.

What headshell are you using? In the original headshell, the cart should be about midway in the slots. It sounds like you're using a Technics/DJ headshell.