Better Than 2M Blue for Pro-Ject DC?

MegaGroove

MegaGroove

Active Member
My Ortofon 2M Blue has seen a lot of hours of use and needs replacing. I really like its sound so I'm probably just going to get another one, but I've considered upgrading to the Bronze cart and stylus, even though it wouldn't reach its full potential on this turntable. Unfortunately, the Bronze is beyond my budget in this case. I've also considered other brands, but the options seem quite limited due to compliance and cartridge weight requirements. I vaguely considered a Goldring 2100 but its VTA is 24 degrees compared to 20 degrees for the 2M Blue. Without a way to adjust VTA on the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, I was wondering if this would be an issue.

Any advice would be much appreciated. My two main questions are as follows:

1) Does stylus VTA matter for my turntable?
2) Has anyone found a better match than the 2M Blue for this turntable within the $200-$300 range?
 
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MegaGroove said:
My Ortofon 2M Blue has seen a lot of hours of use and needs replacing. I really like its sound so I'm probably just going to get another one, but I've considered upgrading to the Bronze cart and stylus, even though it wouldn't reach its full potential on this turntable. Unfortunately, the Bronze is beyond my budget in this case. I've also considered other brands, but the options seem quite limited due to compliance and cartridge weight requirements. I vaguely considered a Goldring 2100 but its VTA is 24 degrees compared to 20 degrees for the 2M Blue. Without a way to adjust VTA on the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, I was wondering if this would be an issue.

Any advice would be much appreciated. My two main questions are as follows:

1) Does stylus VTA matter for my turntable?
2) Has anyone found a better match than the 2M Blue for this turntable within the $200-$300 range?
Click to expand...
I owned a Debut III. I went all the way to the 2M Black. It worked beautifully. I see no reason you can’t go to the Bronze.
Also, just an FYI. I found the Blue to be the perfect sweet spot on my Debut III. Not that the Black wasn’t better, just that the Blue was really close and cost so much less.
 
It's always subjective, I'd think the AT-VM540ML would be a top contender in that price range. Nagaoka MP110 or MP150 are a consideration also.

VTA is useful, and is more critical for a line contact type stylus, but you can use shims to adjust the VTA if the TT doesn't offer an adjustment.
 
trinhsman said:
I owned a Debut III. I went all the way to the 2M Black. It worked beautifully. I see no reason you can’t go to the Bronze.
Also, just an FYI. I found the Blue to be the perfect sweet spot on my Debut III. Not that the Black wasn’t better, just that the Blue was really close and cost so much less.
Click to expand...

That's really good to know. Thanks!
 
knotscott said:
It's always subjective, I'd think the AT-VM540ML would be a top contender in that price range. Nagaoka MP110 or MP150 are a consideration also.

VTA is useful, and is more critical for a line contact type stylus, but you can use shims to adjust the VTA if the TT doesn't offer an adjustment.
Click to expand...

I worry that the compliance and cartridge weight would be slightly low for the AT-VM540ML and that the compliance would be low for the Nagaoka MP150. I don't have enough experience to know how much compliance affects things but I had a problem with a light cartridge (Ortofon OM series) in the past that kept the tonearm from balancing so I couldn't even set it up. I'd also want to avoid shims for VTA if possible.
 
As others have said, VTA matters, but more so with advanced stylus types like fine-line, shibata, microline/microridge, etc.

You can use shims to alter VTA on an arm that doesn't have built-in VTA adjustment, but I can't comment on it's overall flexibility/range of adjustment to an arm w/VTA adjustment features.

I used to have a Debut Carbon, and while the table has moved on, I always did feel it's tonearm and 2M carts had great synergy. So there's nothing wrong with sticking w/the Blue or going up to the Bronze.

As for a new cart, I can't comment on Audio-Technica models (no experience with them), but they are a way to get an advanced stylus profile on the cheap and the VM540ML is well loved among cartridges in it's price range. You should expect far better performance on inner grooves and improved tracking over the 2M Blue, but a different house sound.

I do have both an MP-150 and a 2M Blue - the MP-150 is warmer/smoother, and has a deeper, more punchy bass. It also tracks better than the 2M Blue (TBH, the MP-150 tracks like a beast on my test records). But if you were gonna go Nagaoka, I'd go MP-200 - the 150 is nice, but not a night-and-day upgrade over the 2M Blue (it's a little better IMO, but not by a lot - MP-200 beats them both).
 
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Thanks for the advice on VTA and the cartridge suggestions, everyone. I'm not really considering Audio-technica and Nagaoka because the compliance is too low for my turntable and tonearm, although I only know what I've read about compliance, not what I've experienced. Has anyone heard these on a Project Debut Carbon and know if they work well? Anyone with experience of any other brands working well for this turntable?
 
MegaGroove said:
Thanks for the advice on VTA and the cartridge suggestions, everyone. I'm not really considering Audio-technica and Nagaoka because the compliance is too low for my turntable and tonearm, although I only know what I've read about compliance, not what I've experienced. Has anyone heard these on a Project Debut Carbon and know if they work well? Anyone with experience of any other brands working well for this turntable?
Click to expand...
The Nagaoka MP-200 is right about the same compliance as the 2M Blue on paper (IIRC, it's roughly 20cu western compliance, with a VTF range of 1.5-2.0g), although it weighs a bit less than the Blue (6.5g vs 7.2).

The MP-150 is a bit lower in compliance than the MP-200 or 2M Blue - 1.6-2.0g recommended VTF range and 18cu by western compliance standards (Again, IIRC).

You may have noticed I used the term "western compliance" for the Nagaoka cartridges. That's because the Japanese cartridge brands (including Audio Technica) tend to advertise their compliance using a different "eastern" standard where the number is lower than the western standard. Unfortunately, yes this can make figuring out a compliance match a bit trickier and more confusing. Sometimes it's best to judge an approximate compliance figure by looking at the cartridge's advertised VTF range. In general, lower tracking forces = higher compliance, and higher tracking force = lower compliance.

Truthfully, I wouldn't hesitate trying a VM540ML, MP-150, or MP-200 on that arm if you wanted to try a different brand - none of them are drastically different in compliance than the 2M Blue, and they should all work just fine. It's mainly with extreme compliance mismatches where problems might happen (i.e - a super low compliance, high tracking-force moving coil cart on a super light arm, or a very compliant stylus on a heavier tonearm intended for use with low compliance MCs).

This is another tool that I find useful for judging an arm/cart match, although it is based only on western compliance specs. Simply add your tonearm effective mass, and then use a reference chart it provides - https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=6&submit=Submit

Pretty sure all the cartridges mentioned in this post are in the green (ideal) zone. Even if they're slightly into the yellow zone, it should still be fine.
 
Taketheflame said:
The Nagaoka MP-200 is right about the same compliance as the 2M Blue on paper (IIRC, it's roughly 20cu western compliance, with a VTF range of 1.5-2.0g), although it weighs a bit less than the Blue (6.5g vs 7.2).

The MP-150 is a bit lower in compliance than the MP-200 or 2M Blue - 1.6-2.0g recommended VTF range and 18cu by western compliance standards (Again, IIRC).

You may have noticed I used the term "western compliance" for the Nagaoka cartridges. That's because the Japanese cartridge brands (including Audio Technica) tend to advertise their compliance using a different "eastern" standard where the number is lower than the western standard. Unfortunately, yes this can make figuring out a compliance match a bit trickier and more confusing. Sometimes it's best to judge an approximate compliance figure by looking at the cartridge's advertised VTF range. In general, lower tracking forces = higher compliance, and higher tracking force = lower compliance.

Truthfully, I wouldn't hesitate trying a VM540ML, MP-150, or MP-200 on that arm if you wanted to try a different brand - none of them are drastically different in compliance than the 2M Blue, and they should all work just fine. It's mainly with extreme compliance mismatches where problems might happen (i.e - a super low compliance, high tracking-force moving coil cart on a super light arm, or a very compliant stylus on a heavier tonearm intended for use with low compliance MCs).

This is another tool that I find useful for judging an arm/cart match, although it is based only on western compliance specs. Simply add your tonearm effective mass, and then use a reference chart it provides - https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=6&submit=Submit

Pretty sure all the cartridges mentioned in this post are in the green (ideal) zone. Even if they're slightly into the yellow zone, it should still be fine.
Click to expand...

Ah, I had no idea compliance could vary. Thank you so much for this information. This opens up a lot of possibilities for me, which is what I was really hoping for.
 
I replaced Pro-Ject DC original 2M Red with the 2M Blue and aligned it with the Ortofon alignment protractor and tested it with the Ortofon test record. The tracking ability at 315Hz should be able to track without distortion up to 80 µm but I cant get past 60 µm. I'm using an o-scope to test but it gets bad enough that you really don't need a scope, its pretty obvious. The harmonics are a 2X equal to the amplitude of the 315Hz as well as a 3X and 4X . Also, the tonearm seems to go through multiple resonances where the traces separate during sweeps from 20 Hz - 20kHz (a DC component?).
Its much worse at the recommended 1.8 g and improves as I increase the cartridge weight past 2.0 (which Ortofon says to do if you need to). Its always the Right channel that goes wonky. I've tried adding/ reducing weight to the tracking weight as well as intentionally misaligning azimuth and playing with the overhang to try to get it to swap to the left channel … no luck. VTA seems to not be adjustable but I don't think that would affect the tracking anyway.
The test procedures are harsh extremes, when playing my actual music test albums the 2M Blue sounds great. I've swapped out different cartridge and get better tracking results, closer to 80 µm, but they don't sound as good.
My question is, do I have a cartridge issue or tonearm issue (or a user issue).
 
Jflijohn said:
I replaced Pro-Ject DC original 2M Red with the 2M Blue and aligned it with the Ortofon alignment protractor and tested it with the Ortofon test record. The tracking ability at 315Hz should be able to track without distortion up to 80 µm but I cant get past 60 µm. I'm using an o-scope to test but it gets bad enough that you really don't need a scope, its pretty obvious. The harmonics are a 2X equal to the amplitude of the 315Hz as well as a 3X and 4X . Also, the tonearm seems to go through multiple resonances where the traces separate during sweeps from 20 Hz - 20kHz (a DC component?).
Its much worse at the recommended 1.8 g and improves as I increase the cartridge weight past 2.0 (which Ortofon says to do if you need to). Its always the Right channel that goes wonky. I've tried adding/ reducing weight to the tracking weight as well as intentionally misaligning azimuth and playing with the overhang to try to get it to swap to the left channel … no luck. VTA seems to not be adjustable but I don't think that would affect the tracking anyway.
The test procedures are harsh extremes, when playing my actual music test albums the 2M Blue sounds great. I've swapped out different cartridge and get better tracking results, closer to 80 µm, but they don't sound as good.
My question is, do I have a cartridge issue or tonearm issue (or a user issue).
Click to expand...
My first guess is a VTA issue. Did you try adding shims of changing mats? My second guess would be anti-skate. My Music Hall table uses a Pro-Ject arm. The stock anti-skate weight is just a bit to heavy. I had to lower the weight to get the best tracking. My next guess would be tone arm. That gets too complicated for me, but if not moving freely and perfectly, you could have some issues. My last guess would be the cartridge. They normally don’t have issues.
Just my 2 cents, and I am no turntable guru by any means. In fact, I always have my turntables tuned up by a professional that is an expert.
 
Jflijohn said:
I replaced Pro-Ject DC original 2M Red with the 2M Blue and aligned it with the Ortofon alignment protractor and tested it with the Ortofon test record. The tracking ability at 315Hz should be able to track without distortion up to 80 µm but I cant get past 60 µm. I'm using an o-scope to test but it gets bad enough that you really don't need a scope, its pretty obvious. The harmonics are a 2X equal to the amplitude of the 315Hz as well as a 3X and 4X . Also, the tonearm seems to go through multiple resonances where the traces separate during sweeps from 20 Hz - 20kHz (a DC component?).
Its much worse at the recommended 1.8 g and improves as I increase the cartridge weight past 2.0 (which Ortofon says to do if you need to). Its always the Right channel that goes wonky. I've tried adding/ reducing weight to the tracking weight as well as intentionally misaligning azimuth and playing with the overhang to try to get it to swap to the left channel … no luck. VTA seems to not be adjustable but I don't think that would affect the tracking anyway.
The test procedures are harsh extremes, when playing my actual music test albums the 2M Blue sounds great. I've swapped out different cartridge and get better tracking results, closer to 80 µm, but they don't sound as good.
My question is, do I have a cartridge issue or tonearm issue (or a user issue).
Click to expand...

This does sound like a setup issue. What protractor and other visual methods of alignment are you using?

Thanks!
 
Mr Boochie said:
This does sound like a setup issue. What protractor and other visual methods of alignment are you using?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I'm using the Ortofon protractor. I leveled the platter with a digital machinist level and just for yucks I checked it with a laser level. I set azimuth with a mirror and then checked it with the laser level. I think the o-scope is more affective than the laser on azimuth.
 
Just a quick update for those interested: After researching various carts and styli, I narrowed my choices down to the following: Ortofon 2M Blue, Goldring 2100, Goldring 2200, Nagaoka MP-110, and Nagaoka MP-150. My choices were mainly based on compatibility, availability, and price.

I listened to many online sound comparisons (not the most ideal way to compare, I know). Based upon the sound I prefer and the needs of my listening space (which tends to be overly bright--room treatment has helped a lot), I decided to stick with the 2M Blue. It just seemed to provide that emotional response you get with good sound. The others seemed really neat in their own ways. The Nagaokas were quite detailed and punchy, but perhaps too clinical to my ears. The Goldrings really intrigued me and felt like a good balance between the Ortofon and Nagaoka, but they just didn't beat the 2M Blue for me, although I could only find a Goldring 2100 sound clip, not the 2200. So the 2M Blue has been ordered and is on the way. I'm curious about the Goldring, though. Maybe I'll pick up one of those if they ever go on sale, which I don't think is likely. Thanks again for your guidance on this matter. I've learned a lot about carts and the choices for my turntable.
 
The Goldring 2100 and 2200 are made by Nagaoka. However, they both have bonded elliptical styli, so in that sense would be a downgrade from the nude elliptical stylus of the 2M Blue. For a nude elliptical, you'd have to go to the 2300, which is rather more expensive than the 2M Blue - the Goldring 2000 series prices have shot up. I have a 2400 which I use occasionally as a treat - it has a well-balanced, refined sound that is an easy listen and sounds about right to me. Stylus replacements are very expensive though.

I thing you made the right choice with the 2M Blue in terms of matching the stylus compliance to the arm, as I think your turntable has a very light arm, requiring a high-compliance stylus. Alternatives with higher compliance would have been the Ortofon OM20 and OM30.
 
Crab33 said:
The Goldring 2100 and 2200 are made by Nagaoka. However, they both have bonded elliptical styli, so in that sense would be a downgrade from the nude elliptical stylus of the 2M Blue. For a nude elliptical, you'd have to go to the 2300, which is rather more expensive than the 2M Blue - the Goldring 2000 series prices have shot up. I have a 2400 which I use occasionally as a treat - it has a well-balanced, refined sound that is an easy listen and sounds about right to me. Stylus replacements are very expensive though.

I thing you made the right choice with the 2M Blue in terms of matching the stylus compliance to the arm, as I think your turntable has a very light arm, requiring a high-compliance stylus. Alternatives with higher compliance would have been the Ortofon OM20 and OM30.
Click to expand...

I can't use the OM carts because the tonearm weight for my turntable is too heavy for those, although I think I could just stick an OM stylus on the 2M cart IIRC, which is tempting even as ugly as it would look. I think I'll skip it, though. Thanks for the information regarding the Goldring styli. There isn't a lot of information about those and I was really curious. I knew I'd be stepping down to a bonded elliptical with the 2100 and 2200 but I was willing to live with that if I liked the sound. Ultimately, the price was too much and I thought the 2M Blue was a better match and deal.
 
I'm not sure I've heard the Nagaoka MP series described as clinical before. They are moving iron cartridges and tend to sound fulsome with great bass and midrange, and the top end gets better the higher one goes in the range. But hey, all that matters is what you hear and like and if the Blue does it for you than that's the right answer. When the Blue stylus you've bought needs to be replaced the MP-150 would very much be worth considering, although Nag carts have become absurdly expensive in the US in the last couple of years.

All FWIW.
 
DavidTT said:
I'm not sure I've heard the Nagaoka MP series described as clinical before. They are moving iron cartridges and tend to sound fulsome with great bass and midrange, and the top end gets better the higher one goes in the range.
Click to expand...

Yes, they might not sound clinical at all. I could only go by what I heard online, which just isn't the best way to hear it. I really wanted to give the MP-150 a shot but the Blue kept engaging me more online and it seemed like the safest bet. I still might try it or a Goldring one day for the Pro-Ject DC, but the money might be better spent on a second vintage turntable that allows for more cartridge possibilities.
 
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