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Bi-Amp with Modern and Vintage Amplifier

@jackmowbray i read the active bi-amp needs crossover. are you telling me this?

@whoaru99 Contrary to what Jack said, since the speakers already have a crossover inside and the speakers have two terminals, don’t I need a crossover to do active bi-amping?
 
bekarburak@g said:
@jackmowbray i read the active bi-amp needs crossover. are you telling me this?

@whoaru99 Contrary to what Jack said, since the speakers already have a crossover inside and the speakers have two ter, don’t I need a crossover to do active bi-amping?
Click to expand...

A purist in terms of biamping will argue that you really aren't biamping at all. There is a pejorative term for the type of biamping you're doing. Google "fool's biamping".
 
jackmowbray said:
With an active crossover you can run the mids and highs with a tube amp and ss for the lows…… And, you have an easy way to blend the two.
Click to expand...

You need nothing more than a way to adjust relative levels to do that, not an active crossover.

Active crossover in majority of cases would have that function but by no means is it necessary to get it.

One need nothing more than a way to pad down the amp with higher gain.
 
whoaru99 said:
A purist in terms of biamping will argue that you really aren't biamping at all. There is a pejorative term for the type of biamping you're doing. Google "fool's biamping".
Click to expand...
You're right - "proper" active bi-amping is different from what the OP is experimenting with, but it's something I would advise the OP to avoid. It would require the removal of the passive crossover, and replicating it with an active crossover would be far from trivial. The existing passive crossover will have been designed to work in conjunction with the natural characteristics of the drivers such as their impedance curves and frequency responses, and to compensate for things like the baffle step. Changing to an active crossover would open up a whole new can of worms.
Compensating for the different voltage gains of the two power amps in the passive bi-amping setup is essential though if the tonal balance is to remain unaltered.
 
İ really can’t stop enjoying bi-amp. İt is 6am here in İstanbul.

Still looking power amps. İf i don’t use my sony f6 with TT, i will keep going with this :) when i use it as power amp, TT can’t play without unplugging the power amp section cables, and it is very hard to unplug them. İt is so tight.
 
@rothwellaudio so you say, changing to active crossover brings me trouble as i am an amateur and not a tech man? Even happy with a vintage weak power amp i am haply, i will be satisfied with a more powerful and compatible power amp even it is passive system?
 
Finally i came up with my power amp options in Turkey. Some are sold with their pre-amp. İf i chose this option, i use their pre, their power as 1 and my audiab 9000a as power 2. But i’m in doubt if another brand pre-amp is suitable with my audiolab 9000n streamer. And some come with two power amps for mono block which i don’t have any opinion against bi-amping. İ choosed powerful ones to feed my MOnitor Audio Gold 500 6G speakers rated 130-600 watts. My purpose is not high level volum. Detail in low volumes that powerful amps provides this.

Rotel RB-1090
Rotel RMB-1575 2 amps mono block
T+A A 200
Classe Audio CA-200 & DR-4L Pre/Power
Classe Audio Fifteen
Classe Audio DR-15
Perreaux PMF 2150B
Adcom GFA 5802
Counter Point SA-20
Krell KAV-250A & 250P Pre/Power
NAD S200 & S100 Pre/Power
Arcam PA-240 2 amps mono block

Yes it is a long list. Sorry for this. İ appreciate if anyone has opinions on these ones.
 
bekarburak@g said:
(...) Are these values calculated from any data? (...)
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Well, yes, I've checked the web site of Audiolab(.co..uk) as well as the service manual for the Sony to get the rated output powers as well as the power-amp section input sensitivities for both models. Well, and the Audiolab web-site even mentions the gain of the power-amp section of the 9000A, but I nevertheless also calculated it for verification.

Works like this: P = U * I = U² / R, so the output voltage is U(out) = (P * R)^0.5. And the gain in decibel is 20 * log (U(out) / U(in)).

bekarburak@g said:
(...) I’ve found a few second-hand models in Turkey. If I list them here, could you help me? (...)
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I could - but as you've mentioned, that you'd consider swapping your 9000A for a 9000Q plus two 9000Ps, I'd suggest to consider simply keeping your 9000A and just adding one 9000P instead, as that has the same gain as the power-amp section of your 9000A and offers the same output power anyway.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
lini said:
Burak, the problem is, that the power-amp sections of your Audiolab and your Sony don't have quite the same gain - i.e., 9000A: 1 V input level for 100 W @ 8 Ohm = a gain of pretty exactly 29 dB compared to TA-F6B: 1.3 V input level for 100 W @ 8 Ohm = a gain of pretty exactly 26.75 dB. So with the same input signal the Sony would be not quite 2.3 dB "less loud" than the Audiolab (unless you'd compensate for that difference) - and that difference would already suffice to create a different impression than a bi-amping setup with two power-amps (or respectively two power-amp sections) with exactly the same gain or a regular, non-bi-amping setup.

Or in other words: Without compensating for that gain difference, you won't know, whether a perceived difference between that Audiolab/Sony bi-amping setup and a non-bi-amping setup (be it using the Audiolab or the Sony) is caused by bi-amping vs. non-bi-amping or rather merely by bi-amping with somewhat unequal gain vs. non-bi-amping.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...
Proper bi amping requirements are two amps that are the same for both output for the whole frequency range
 
rothwellaudio said:
You're right - "proper" active bi-amping is different from what the OP is experimenting with, but it's something I would advise the OP to avoid. It would require the removal of the passive crossover, and replicating it with an active crossover would be far from trivial. The existing passive crossover will have been designed to work in conjunction with the natural characteristics of the drivers such as their impedance curves and frequency responses, and to compensate for things like the baffle step. Changing to an active crossover would open up a whole new can of worms.
Compensating for the different voltage gains of the two power amps in the passive bi-amping setup is essential though if the tonal balance is to remain unaltered.
Click to expand...
You hit the nail on the head
 
bekarburak@g said:
@lini
I understood what you meant. I looked at the manuals for both Sony and Audiolab for those values, but I couldn’t find them. Are these values calculated from any data?

I’ve been listening like this for quite a while, and since I’m really enjoying the current difference, I think I can achieve a much better result with a power amp that meets the criteria you mentioned.

I’ve found a few second-hand models in Turkey. If I list them here, could you help me?

Also, due to budget constraints, I want to continue with the 9000A integrated for high and mid frequencies. I’m only thinking of getting a power amp for low frequencies. Is that the right decision, or should I do the opposite?

As you are someone who i really appreciate your opinions, knowledge, and experience, what do you think about vertical and horizontal bi-amping?

And should I definitely do this with a crossover in an active bi-amping setup?

Thanks in advance!

@Akustic that is what i am now experiencing. İf i pay attention to @lini s gain calculation and choose a compatible power amp with 9000a, do i still need that signal level controller?
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A matched output level preserves the voicing of the speaker's crossover that the speaker designer intended ..

But having an adjustable level control on one of the amps allows for small adjustments between the bass and treble frequencies bands that can accommodate room anomalies and personal preferences.
I've always preferred a level control on one of the amps ..

Vertical bi-amping requires identical amps not just matched gain .. there can be phase differences between two different amps with matched gain.
 
whoaru99 said:
A purist in terms of biamping will argue that you really aren't biamping at all. There is a pejorative term for the type of biamping you're doing. Google "fool's biamping".
Click to expand...

A purist ??

That is just the same old argument presented by advocates of active bi-amping v.s. passive bi-amping ..
In terms of sound quality they are equally effective methods ..
 
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@Akustic thank you for reply. İ’m reading for hours between horizontal bi-amp, vertical bi-amp and mono block. İ am really confused. Everyone is telling something different.

Also between passive and active bi-amping there are many different opinions.

Without deciding i can’t buy a power amp.

As having an integrated amp audiolab 9000a , i can do horizontal bi-amp buying only one amp, mono-block buying 2 amps, but for vertical i have to buy a 2 channel pre, 2 power that makes 3, and my 9000a becomes useless.

And i am mostly leaning on vertical as it is separate amps for each speaker like mono-block amd separates low-high channels like horizontal bi-amp. İt is like having the benefits of both mono and horizontal.
 
bekarburak@g said:
@Akustic thank you for reply. İ’m reading for hours between horizontal bi-amp, vertical bi-amp and mono block. İ am really confused. Everyone is telling something different.

Also between passive and active bi-amping there are many different opinions.

Without deciding i can’t buy a power amp.

As having an integrated amp audiolab 9000a , i can do horizontal bi-amp buying only one amp, mono-block buying 2 amps, but for vertical i have to buy a 2 channel pre, 2 power that makes 3, and my 9000a becomes useless.

And i am mostly leaning on vertical as it is separate amps for each speaker like mono-block amd separates low-high channels like horizontal bi-amp. İt is like having the benefits of both mono and horizontal.
Click to expand...

There are advantages to each method ..
Mono amps (mono blocks) is not bi-amping .. just using a separate amplifier for each channel.
Study the advantage of vertical over horizontal ..

I prefer horizontal because every amp sounds at least slightly different from every other amp ..
I can take advantage of each amp's strengths and minimize it's weakness ..
That is essentially what you are doing when you use a an older, maybe less detailed amp on the bass notes but then use a modern more detailed amp for the upper frequencies.
One practical advantage of horizontal bi-amping is that amps are easy to find when they don't have to be identical...


Enjoy the Music ...
You have found an improvement ..
 
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@Akustic yes i am learning sth new :) thanks.
But in terms of vertical, i can’t see anything worse according to horizontal? İs the main purpose; an amp for a speaker? Or separating lf and hf ? Vertical does both. But horizontal does only one.
 
bekarburak@g said:
@Akustic yes i am learning sth new :) thanks.
But in terms of vertical, i can’t see anything worse according to horizontal? İs the main purpose; an amp for a speaker? Or separating lf and hf ? Vertical does both. But horizontal does only one.
Click to expand...

Two separate power supplies can create an advantage ..
Separating and isolating the frequencies can create an advantage ...

Either horizontal or vertical can do both ..
 
İ got Vincent SV-238 from my retailer friend to try.

İt is a dual mono integrated amp.

  • Frequency response: 20 Hz - 22 KHz +/- 0.5 dB
  • Nominal power in class A: 2x60Watt RMS / 8 Ohm
  • Nominal power: 2x200Watt RMS / 8 Ohm
  • Nominal power: 2x400Watt RMS / 4 Ohm
  • Nominal power: 700Watt RMS / 2 Ohm
  • Distortion: < 0.1% max (1Khz, 1W)
  • Input sensitivity: 250 mV
  • S/N ratio: 95dB
  • Input impedance: 47 KOhm
400w for my monitor audio gold 6g 130-600 w is okay i think.

İ am not familiar with dual mono. So for now i dont know what type of connection i am able to do.

The current setup which made me like bi-amp, audiolab 9000N streamer to 9000A integrated. Using 9000A as a preamp, and also power amp feeding mid-high channel, and my vintage sony ta-f6 integrated feeding the lows, horizontal bi-amp.

But now with vincent i don’t know how to setup.

1) keep this horizontal bi-amp, just changing sony with vincent.

2) using 9000A only for pre-amp, and vincent for dual mono, it can also bi amp by itself as left and right channels each has two outputs terminals. İt is like something both mono and vertical bi-amp if i am not wrong.

3) vincent for pre and power feeding mid-high (maybe low?), 9000a power feeding low (or mid-high)

İ will try both will decide if i can understand the difference.
 

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