Bright/sibilant vinyl playback... what might be the culprit?

P

pedrohead

Active Member
So I really enjoy the open/extended high end in my vinyl playback system vs. CD, but on the large majority of my vinyl, it often seems overly bright or I experience more sibilance in vocals then I would expect. In comparison with equal loudness A/B-ing with CD, it often makes the vinyl sound a little "thin" since the highs are that much more present.

It's on a multitude of my vinyl, so I don't think it's a problem I could draw up to a specific disk.

My rig is a Pro-ject Debut III with a new Denon DL-160 cartridge, Acryl-it platter, controlled by a Speedbox II into a Creek OBH-18 preamp.

I carefully set up the cartridge when I installed it for proper alignment with the protractor supplied by Pro-ject. Azimuth looks good, VTF is at least well within the 1.6g +/- 0.3g range (and adjusting that hasn't made a difference). The only think I think I could be hanging out on is the VTA (which is not adjustable on the Debut III arm).

I'd be suspicious about the VTA except that from what I've read, bright playback can be an issue if the arm angles down toward the cartridge, and if anything, my arm angles down toward the pivot point (if just barely).

Records and stylus are clean.

Any suggestions of what to look at?
 
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I'd be interested in the answer to, but when i compared a couple of tracks against other recordings on supposedly better equipment the sibilance was there in almost equal measure - so I suppose if its not your alignment then it could well be on the vinyl itself

You could adust the vta slightly with different mat thicknesses and or use a spacer between cart & headshell
 
How old is this cartridge? You'll need at least 50 hours on a new Denon 160 for it to open up.

Platter mat (or a headshell spacer) is a great suggestion to quickly adjust VTA. Adjust, listen.

I'd put my bets on the youth of the cartridge.

Jeff
 
It's possible that youth of cart is in play

Try lowering the VTA with sheets of paper or thin card (even a combination) between the Mat & the deck
- it's a lot less troublesome than messing with the VTA anyway
 
Yeah that'd be great if it was the "newness" of the DL160. I've played on it quite a bit, but very possibly not for 50 hrs yet... guess I should have been keeping count :D

Thanks for the VTA suggestions, the issue is that if anything, the VTA is already high at the cartridge side. Adding mats or spacers to the headshell or any of the suggestions given only make the cartridge side even higher. Adjustments I'd be able to make would be to get the pivot point side higher.

I don't see any screws at the base of the tonearm or anything that I can use to even shim it up from where it currently rests...
 
thinner mat then - try a thin bit of card without the mat to try it should point you in some direction
 
Some carts are not known for their tracking. I know nothing of yours but will tell you that for a little over $100 the Audio Technica AT440MLa will track just about anything and sounds great.

Definitely make sure your turntable is aligned correctly. If you still have mistracking there may not be much you can do about it except change cartridges.

One more thing, if it's tracking correctly (not breaking up) but is just trebly, you could experiment with different phono preamps and impedance/capacitance tweaking.
 
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leigho said:
Some carts are not known for their tracking. I know nothing of yours but will tell you that for a little over $100 the Audio Technica AT440MLa will track just about anything and sounds great.

Definitely make sure your turntable is aligned correctly. If you still have mistracking there may not be much you can do about it except change cartridges.

One more thing, if it's tracking correctly (not breaking up) but is just trebly, you could experiment with different phono preamps and impedance/capacitance tweaking.
Click to expand...

From what I've read the DL-160 should be tracking just as well as an AT440.

About your breaking up comment though, it's tough to expressly differentiate the two, but it's within reason to say that it's also "breaking up" at those trebly parts. Would that lead to a different path of investigation?
 
It's actually useful to do a recording via audacity here are 3 versions on different decks you can download to compare - note the sibilance
 
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pedrohead said:
Thanks for the VTA suggestions, the issue is that if anything, the VTA is already high at the cartridge side. Adding mats or spacers to the headshell or any of the suggestions given only make the cartridge side even higher. Adjustments I'd be able to make would be to get the pivot point side higher.
.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter what it looks like. You've got a problem with the sound. Put a platter mat on and see what it sounds like then.

Raising the pivot will only increase the treble response. Lower the pivot for more bass. Hence the recommendation for a platter mat or cartridge spacer.

Jeff
 
jmathers said:
Doesn't matter what it looks like. You've got a problem with the sound. Put a platter mat on and see what it sounds like then.

Raising the pivot will only increase the treble response. Lower the pivot for more bass. Hence the recommendation for a platter mat or cartridge spacer.

Jeff
Click to expand...

Good point. I'll give that a run, too.

So the goal with VTA isn't necessarily to have the tone arm parallel to the record? I guess I had always thought that was the goal (and why I hadn't tried things to this point that pushed it further from that bogey).
 
Also I have been assuming you have VTF set correctly. What are you using for a scale?

FWIW: I ran my Denon 110 at 1.8g-2.0g and it sounded fine (pretty sweet actually) on a similar table to yours.

Jeff

The goal is to get the arm parallel, yes. But you are having sound problems. So all bets are off on what you should do on average. There's no harm in raising, in lowering VTA and then listening - especially if it's as easy as popping on a platter mat. Let your ears be the judge.
 
jmathers said:
Also I have been assuming you have VTF set correctly. What are you using for a scale?

FWIW: I ran my Denon 110 at 1.8g-2.0g and it sounded fine (pretty sweet actually) on a similar table to yours.

Jeff

The goal is to get the arm parallel, yes. But you are having sound problems. So all bets are off on what you should do on average. There's no harm in raising, in lowering VTA and then listening - especially if it's as easy as popping on a platter mat. Let your ears be the judge.
Click to expand...

Right now I'm just using the counterweight's gage reading, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with if it weren't for:

1) I took my table to a shop and they measured the VTF with a digital gage at one point (with the original OM5E cartridge) and the counterweight's dial indicator was dead nuts on, almost to the .01 gram.

2) I've tried varying the VTF up and down from where it's current baseline, and it hasn't changed the sound.

Would the move to a totally different cartridge invalidate the VTF as indicated on the counterweight? I would assume weight is weight.
 
Look at picture below

Here is my DL-160 on a Marantz 6100. The VTA is parallel from what I can tell and I am running at 1.62 grams VTF. I have enough bass and treble is fine. I have noticed no strange behavior with the Deneon level and at that VTF.

I would check the table on another system but still do what the OP said and raise the mat until the cart is level.
 
pedrohead said:
From what I've read the DL-160 should be tracking just as well as an AT440.

About your breaking up comment though, it's tough to expressly differentiate the two, but it's within reason to say that it's also "breaking up" at those trebly parts. Would that lead to a different path of investigation?
Click to expand...

It definitely matters, because "breaking up" (mistracking) is the result of the needle/cartridge failing to physically reproduce high frequencies, whereas trebly sound indicates an equalization issue (not flat) which has a much different path of resolution.

Have you aligned your turntable? It really does matter. There is a lot of info out there to guide you and you. A level and a protractor are all you need to get things aligned well. You can download and print out protractors, too, which is what I did.

Also the tracking force (weight on the needle) is important. I would shy towards high, not low, when it comes to tracking (better for vinyl, believe it or not).

Finally, many people believe that break-in is important. Personally, I think the ears break in more than the gear, but there may be an argument for a new cartridge "settling in" and mellowing out.
 
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