Buy Speakers or an Amplifier?

Dr. Scott

Dr. Scott

Dr. Scott
I have a problem. Every now and then I like to get some “new” piece of equipment so that I can try out a different sound or move closer to audio perfection. I’m not the only one with this problem on this site. So I’d like to ask other like-minded, similarly addicted souls.

I’m basically trying to decide between getting speakers or an amplifier to satisfy this itch. Please read on if you’d like to help.

I have 4 systems (again, I have a problem), but I’m really only asking about how to improve the main system. For the main, I mix and match between these two set-ups:

Main: Marantz 2252b, Boston Acoustics a-200, HSU STF-1, Technics SL-1200Mk2

Office/Kitchen: Sansui TU-717, Sansui AU-D9, Technics SL-1400, switch between JBL Venue series bookshelves in the kitchen and Cerwin Vega AT-10 in the office.

I’d like to be able to rotate between the Marantz and the Sansui tuner/amp combo for the Main system, but the Sansui amp and Boston Acoustics combination just does not seem to be working so hot at my listening levels (on the low side). Totally sweet clarity, but midrange and low-end is lacking a bit (compared to the Marantz at least). The Marantz and Boston Acoustics combo is significantly better in the midrange and bass, but the clarity is not as good (compared to the AU-D9). Overall better though and certainly something I’m very happy with.

I’m thinking of two options:

a) Get different speakers that better complement the Sansui tuner/amp combo. The idea here is that the Sansui AU-D9 might sound better with speakers that accentuate mid-range and bass more. Maybe JBL studio monitors, but I want to keep my budget between 200-300 dollars. Any suggestions?

b) Get a different amp to go with the Sansui TU-717 and rotate the AU-D9 into some other system. I’d like to find an amp that has the good qualities of the AU-D9 (super clear phono section, ideally high watts) while better bass. I’ve read that the AU-919 (the older brother) is similar in that you have to turn it up to make it come alive. I’m currently thinking about a Luxman amp, but I’ve never heard one. Or maybe an AU-9500, AU-7900, AU-717, or some other Marantz amp, but I’m guessing that they won’t have as great a phono section. Again, I’m open to suggestions with a budget between 200-300 dollars.

If you have made it is this far (thanks for your patience), I’m trying to figure whether I’d get more bang for the buck with a) or b) and what equipment to look for based on your choice. Or if you can think of an option c), then that’d be good for me to consider too.

Thanks!
 
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Since there have been a number of AKer's who have read your question and not responded, I'll give my 2 cents.
First of all since I am not intimately familiar with your setup so makes it difficult to to make a recommendation. This may be the case for many who read it but I'll answer it this way. In my opinion unless you have a glaring weak spot in one of the components, replacing just one piece with the hope of reaching audio nirvana or even making a huge step it's just not going to happen. You can however take a baby step in the right direction. The thing to keep in mind is that once you have a half decent sound system, in order to take a significantly noticeable step, it will require a 2x $$ investment. For instance if your current system is a $1500 system you may have to invest $1500 more to make a significant step up or sell all you have for $1500 and buy a new $3000 system. Some might argue this point but in general I have found it to be true. Please keep in mind I am talking about a decent sounding $1500 system without a glaring weakness.

With that said obviously your TT is a very good one that should be left alone, but after that, don't rule out the Marantz as being the possible next weak link rather than the Boston Acoustics. You may want to list what cartridge you have on the TT.
 
Is there anyone you know who has a relatively high end amplifier that you could borrow to give you an idea of what your speakers could do for you if you upgraded the amp? It at least creates some sort of benchmark for you for comparison sake.
 
Consider some of the better Japanese 2 or 3 way dome speakers. Most are moderately efficient, and sound pretty good. I've never heard your speakers, so I've no real reference.
 
Using a good SS amp with your receiver as a pre is an option.

I use a HK 330A paired with a Hafler Trans nova and it sounds pretty remarkable. You get the tone of the receiver with a lot more power which usually reveals more detail in the music.

Also, as an idea to get a different sound try a pair of JBLs or Hafler speakers to hear something different than the east coast sound of the BAs.

Good luck

Eric
 
Lux Man said:
Since there have been a number of AKer's who have read your question and not responded, I'll give my 2 cents.
First of all since I am not intimately familiar with your setup so makes it difficult to to make a recommendation. This may be the case for many who read it but I'll answer it this way. In my opinion unless you have a glaring weak spot in one of the components, replacing just one piece with the hope of reaching audio nirvana or even making a huge step it's just not going to happen. You can however take a baby step in the right direction. The thing to keep in mind is that once you have a half decent sound system, in order to take a significantly noticeable step, it will require a 2x $$ investment. For instance if your current system is a $1500 system you may have to invest $1500 more to make a significant step up or sell all you have for $1500 and buy a new $3000 system. Some might argue this point but in general I have found it to be true. Please keep in mind I am talking about a decent sounding $1500 system without a glaring weakness.

With that said obviously your TT is a very good one that should be left alone, but after that, don't rule out the Marantz as being the possible next weak link rather than the Boston Acoustics. You may want to list what cartridge you have on the TT.
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Yes, I have considered the idea of selling my other set ups in order to create a nicer system, but I really like the idea of hearing one sort of sound in one room and another in another room, and so on and so forth. Because I don't have enough funds to double my investment, I'm stuck with other options.

I'm intrigued by your idea of swapping cartridges. I use a Shure M97-X for the SL-1200MK2, and that cart is supposed to be neutral. I suppose I could try using a more lively cart when using the Sansui AU-D9. My other carts are dj-style Stanton 680HPs. They are more lively, but when I compare the AU-D9with these carts using headphones, the AU-D9 still sounds as I described it earlier. But I'm now thinking there may be another cart I could find that could
help. (Any suggestions? AT440MLA?) I do know that the Boston Acoustics can sound full because they do so with the Marantz. I just need to find the source to get them to do it.

I don't know anyone (well enough) who could let me borrow their amp. That's a good thought too.

Thanks, Lux Man.
 
FWIW, and realizing it's just one guy's opinion, my money is on speakers. Until you get to a certain point where the sound is REAL GOOD, you won't notice much difference from amp to amp using reasonably efficient speakers at moderate volumes. Someone in the know once noted that amp A and amp B should sound identical when operated within their specified operating range of input and output. Now, we know that's not 100% true, if it is then Mark Levinson has fooled a lot of people out of a lot of money. BUT, the nuances of the music that are revealed with a superior amp are pretty far out along the curve of investment vs. return... both your Sansui amp and the Marantz receiver should be able to sound pretty durn good driving the right speakers.

It's possible that neither amp mates well with those speakers. It could be that the "crossover" in the BA's needs new and/or better caps (my T-830's had, I believe, a single capacitor as the crossover hence the quotes). One of the best systems I've ever heard was a friend's Technics receiver and a pair of generic two-ways... Akai or Sansui or Kenwood speakers, nuttin' fancy. But the sound was just phenomenal... it MADE you want to tap your foot and sing along. Synergy was present. I've also heard some very expensive components that, when hooked together, sounded flat and dull and lifeless.

Anyways, I've owned a lot of equipment over the years, and my biggest WOW moments have come from speaker upgrades. Sure a better amp sounds better but generally it's more of a listen-to-it-for-awhile-and-realize-hey-this-IS-better vs. the holy-****-how-did-i-ever-listen-to-those-crappy-speakers-for-so-long I've gotten with speakers. I'm not slagging the BA's, I've owned A-70's, A-100's and the T-830's, but I will say I don't own any of them any more as there are better ones out there. I'd try to borrow some other speakers and see what they sound like before buying an amp.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: just noticed the 1060 in your sig. Why don't you try that in the mix and see how it sounds. The 1060 has one of THE BEST preamps from that era, the power amp is decent but not great.
 
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dspear99ca said:
Someone in the know once noted that amp A and amp B should sound identical when operated within their specified operating range of input and output. Now, we know that's not 100% true, if it is then Mark Levinson has fooled a lot of people out of a lot of money. BUT, the nuances of the music that are revealed with a superior amp are pretty far out along the curve of investment vs. return... both your Sansui amp and the Marantz receiver should be able to sound pretty durn good driving the right speakers.
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Personally, having an assortment gear including Levinson, I feel qualified to say the statement in bold is much closer to true than it is to false (although I would replace "identical" with "similar enough that you can't tell the difference"). That said, I don't necessarily put a bunch of stock in the qualifying condition of the statement.

If we race a Chevette against a Porsche 911 Turbo, but limit every operation and performance characteristic of the Porsche to that no greater than the Chevette capability, what does that tell us? Tells us under the condition of the test they perform about the same...is it a valid test and a vaild conclusion? The answer depends on if you stay within the constraints of the test or look beyond them.
 
Dr. Scott said:
Yes, I have considered the idea of selling my other set ups in order to create a nicer system, but I really like the idea of hearing one sort of sound in one room and another in another room, and so on and so forth. Because I don't have enough funds to double my investment, I'm stuck with other options.
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Well, even the same stuff will sound different in another room. ;)

My initial reaction the OP is; Sell a few pair of speakers to free up some budget for great ones.
 
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whoaru99 said:
If we race a Chevette against a Porsche 911 Turbo, but limit every operation and performance characteristic of the Porsche to that no greater than the Chevette capability, what does that tell us? Tells us under the condition of the test they perform about the same...is it a valid test and a vaild conclusion? The answer depends on if you stay within the constraints of the test or look beyond them.
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Ah, but we're NOT racing a Chevette against the Porsche. More like a Z-28 Camaro vs. the Porsche... okay, it's definitely not as refined and it's certainly not as expensive and as a chick magnet it attracts a decidedly different demographic than the Porsche, but the Camaro handles reasonably well and has a powerful engine. I think that's a more apt comparison. We're not pitting the Levinson against a Soundesign or a Lloyds, and that's the segment of the car market the Chevette represents... I know, I owned one in the 80's.

I think that if you're talking about moderate volume music into a benign load 8-ohm speaker, most reasonably well-designed amps, certainly the two we're talking about, should put out music that is NOT immediately discernible from that put out by a much more expensive amplifier, at least in non-critical-listening situations.
 
Well don't overlook the obvious, you might have the combinations you need already! Try swapping the speakers you have with the amps you already have.

After many years of ownership with my numerous LX5's hooked up to Technics HT receivers, I was detoxing my Rotel 603 and using a sit of Infinity Micro infintesimals,
as speakers on a lark I grabbed a set of lx5's and hooked them up to the Rotel and infinity sub and turned it on and holy crap!

The sense of air and space that came out of that sit up was just amazing! So this combo is going to stay together somewhere in the house!

I'am just saying you might already have what you need in the house now and it doesn't cost anything to swap things around! :)
 
No matter what amp/receiver you rotate into your main system, it will be no better than your speakers allow it to be. I vote for maybe selling off a pair of the speakers you don't particularly care for, and going after a pair of higher end speakers with a substantially higher budget. Maybe start looking at high end ADC for a start in the right direction.
 
Everything makes a difference at some point in the equation. Since you are looking to change things up dramatically I'd suggest one of two directions. Both will be substantial differences in sound/timbre/tonality/presentation etc.

-Try speakers with a different style of mid/tweet (cone/planar/'stat/horn/dipole/etc.) they all present sound very differently

or

-Try some tubes. Buy an inexpensive stereo tube amplifier (a real one, not some SS amp with a tube buffer in it). The difference between tubes and SS is as big of a difference as speaker types. Tube and SS both bring different things to the table. Tubes give you better mids and harmonics in the highs (albeit a bit softer high usually, due to rolloff). SS gives you the bass punch, and higher highs; but tend to sound a bit flat.

***Very, very, very broad generalizations. But both are substantially different from the other. I like them both and own both. Same with speakers with different types of drivers.

So many possibilities out there. Best to try something off your current grid.
 
FWIW, I have a pair of BA A200's (see signature for rest of gear).

I like my A200's, but they can be improved on.

I switched them out for a pair of McIntosh XR-5's and realized "Oh...bass! I had forgotten what you sound like!

I think the speakers are going to make the most difference, but I'm behind the times on how you should upgrade.
 
Dr. Scott said:
I’d like to be able to rotate between the Marantz and the Sansui tuner/amp combo for the Main system, but the Sansui amp and Boston Acoustics combination just does not seem to be working so hot at my listening levels (on the low side). Totally sweet clarity, but midrange and low-end is lacking a bit (compared to the Marantz at least). The Marantz and Boston Acoustics combo is significantly better in the midrange and bass, but the clarity is not as good (compared to the AU-D9). Overall better though and certainly something I’m very happy with.
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I'm wondering if everyone paid attention the details of your post :scratch2: I suspect what you may be hearing from the Sansui is actually more flat and clean output, revealing the laid-back nature of the Bostons. The easiest solution is to turn it up ;). It's unfortunate that the Sansui has no loudness feature, and the bass control is too high in freq. If you listen at low volumes most of the time, a variable loudness feature is worth having and using. I think Yamaha made some integrateds with that?

You could try a more lively sensitive speaker, certainly. You might also consider a sub, which could hold up the low end while you tweak the Sansui tone controls to slightly accentuate the midrange.
 
dspear99ca said:
Ah, but we're NOT racing a Chevette against the Porsche. More like a Z-28 Camaro vs. the Porsche... okay, it's definitely not as refined and it's certainly not as expensive and as a chick magnet it attracts a decidedly different demographic than the Porsche, but the Camaro handles reasonably well and has a powerful engine. I think that's a more apt comparison. We're not pitting the Levinson against a Soundesign or a Lloyds, and that's the segment of the car market the Chevette represents... I know, I owned one in the 80's.

I think that if you're talking about moderate volume music into a benign load 8-ohm speaker, most reasonably well-designed amps, certainly the two we're talking about, should put out music that is NOT immediately discernible from that put out by a much more expensive amplifier, at least in non-critical-listening situations.
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Mine was an extreme example hoping the point would be easily made.

Doesn't matter if the car is a Chevette or Camaro, if you limit the performance to the least common denominator why would one expect a performance evaluation that shows the Porsche to be the better performer?

Perhaps put another way, if you put enough restrictions on the test so that you are for all intents and purposes testing A against A, why would one expect any outcome other than A = A?

But yes, if you recheck my other post, you'll see I've already stated I think amps tend to sound more alike than different under "easy" conditions.
 
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