Buying New Setup, Need a Phono Pre

dastinger

dastinger

Member
Hello everyone,

I've been listening to my collection for years with a pair of B&W DM305, a Marantz SR73/Denon AVR/Pioneer SX408, Rega P3 2016 w/ a Goldring E3 (MM) and a B&W ASW600.

The amps are a lot because I have been swapping, but it's a pretty much middle of the road/low end system.

I have the opportunity to buy my uncle's setup and will do it around next week. It's as follows:

Amp: Forté Audio 4k
Preamp: PS Audio 6.0
Speakers: B&W 804 Matrix

The only thing I'll keep is, obviously, the P3 and the sub replacing everything else.

There's an issue though. The phono pre-amp on those PS Audios was optional and my uncle didn't give two cents about vinyl in the mid 90s like almost everyone else so I need to buy one separately.

Now, I'm totally new to buying phono pres so I'm not sure what to look for. I don't want to go broke so I'm looking for the best option at around the €200/300 mark. Is this realistic? I don't want to buy a phono pre that won't let me enjoy that great setup at it's full potential so I'm not sure if I need to go higher than that. I saw the Vincents, the Mani, the Regas... any of these?

Also, I know my cartridge will then be the worst part on the setup, but I'll probably leave that for later. I don't know if I'll ever buy an MC cart, so if that's something that makes the price higher and/or narrows down my options considerably, I'll be happy with a MM only phono preamp.

I'm looking at snatching one this Black Friday, but the used market is also an option.

Thank you so much in advance!
 
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I think you’ll probably get plenty of ideas from other folks but I thought I should mention the phono preamps that I’m liking right now. Those are the Musical Surroundings Phonomena and Phonomena II. I’ve had the Mani (couple of, early and more recent) and while they sound good with some MM/MI cartridges, they didn’t offer the adjustability I wanted as far as gain and load settings. The Phonomena has all the settings you’re likely to want for about any MM/MI cartridge, and for most MC’s. They sound very good to me as well.
You can pick up a nice pre-owned Phonomena II for about twice the price of a Mani. I think they’re worth considering.
 
The Goldring E3 is based on the Audio Technica AT95 and has the same recommended input capacitance of 100 - 200pF. Without going into too much detail why that's important, if you plan to continue to use your E3, you will want to look for a phono stage with an input capacitance in the 100pF, or lower, range (your tonearm wires ad interconnects will also contribute ~100pF in load).

One interesting phono stage in your price range is the Lounge Audio LCR III. The input capacitance is 120pF, so you will want to make sure you are using short, low capacitance interconnects between your turntable and the phono stage. The Lounge isn't nearly as flexible, in terms gain and load settings, as other phono stages, so in addition to making sure it works well with your current Goldring cart you will want to also make sure it will work well with any future carts you plan to pair with it. One of many long threads on the Lounge at the Steve Hoffman forums can be found here.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, in terms of adjustability, is the Parks Audio Puffin. It's a DSP based phono stage, so all the settings are programmable via built-in software. Its a little out of your price range, but the manufacturer often has refurbished units available that get it close to your budget. If you have many records in less than pristine condition, on advantage of the Puffin is the included MAGIC software that reduces pops and clicks. It doesn't completely eliminate them, like the much more expensive SugarCube, but it is reported to substantially reduce the audibility of pops and clicks on badly worn records. Very long thread on the Puffin here.

Those are just two of the many choices, and somewhat controversial ones at that, in your price range. The problem is, within that price range, few stand out. Of course, buying used will save you some money, and some will advise you to start out with something inexpensive (like the Schiit Many, U-turn Pluto or Art DJ PreII) and save your money for a better phono stage. Once you get into the $750 - $1500 range, a lit of very significant, highly regarded phono stages become available. Again buying used in this segment can yield some real bargains. I an personally running a Parasound JC3 Jr. and love it. I have run it with both MM/MI and MC carts and it sounds great with both. I wouldn't have been able to afford a new one, but got a great deal on a slightly used sample within driving distance.

Parasound has a new phono stage out, the ZPhono XRM, that is in the same price range as the Parks Audio Puffin. As someone who likes to run two turntables, the ZPhono XRM has a cool feature that let's you run one MM/MI cartridge and one MC and switch between them with a front panel toggle. For me personally, it will come down to a choice between the Parks Audio Puffin and the Parasound ZPhono XRM for my secondary turntable. I'd love to do an in home comparison between the JC3 Jr. and the ZPhono XRM. If the XRM comes close to the sound quality of the JC3 Jr., it would be a no-brainer for me. Given the price difference, I don't expect it to be a viable replacement for the JC3 Jr., just a potential phono stage for my secondary table. Here's a review of the ZPPhono XRM:

Analog Planet (Michael Fremer), March 2020
 
MisterDK said:
I think you’ll probably get plenty of ideas from other folks but I thought I should mention the phono preamps that I’m liking right now. Those are the Musical Surroundings Phonomena and Phonomena II. I’ve had the Mani (couple of, early and more recent) and while they sound good with some MM/MI cartridges, they didn’t offer the adjustability I wanted as far as gain and load settings. The Phonomena has all the settings you’re likely to want for about any MM/MI cartridge, and for most MC’s. They sound very good to me as well.
You can pick up a nice pre-owned Phonomena II for about twice the price of a Mani. I think they’re worth considering.
Click to expand...
Hi, thank you so much for your reply!

You're not the first one to recommend me the Phenomena and it actually does look really good, but I can't find one on the used market right now unfortunately, at least looking on Hifi Shark. On top of that, I'm in Europe so I don't know if it'll ever be easy to find one since most I saw that sold before were in the US.

Is there anywhere else I can easily look? They don't sell it new anymore, right?

MCM_Fan said:
The Goldring E3 is based on the Audio Technica AT95 and has the same recommended input capacitance of 100 - 200pF. Without going into too much detail why that's important, if you plan to continue to use your E3, you will want to look for a phono stage with an input capacitance in the 100pF, or lower, range (your tonearm wires ad interconnects will also contribute ~100pF in load).

One interesting phono stage in your price range is the Lounge Audio LCR III. The input capacitance is 120pF, so you will want to make sure you are using short, low capacitance interconnects between your turntable and the phono stage. The Lounge isn't nearly as flexible, in terms gain and load settings, as other phono stages, so in addition to making sure it works well with your current Goldring cart you will want to also make sure it will work well with any future carts you plan to pair with it. One of many long threads on the Lounge at the Steve Hoffman forums can be found here.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, in terms of adjustability, is the Parks Audio Puffin. It's a DSP based phono stage, so all the settings are programmable via built-in software. Its a little out of your price range, but the manufacturer often has refurbished units available that get it close to your budget. If you have many records in less than pristine condition, on advantage of the Puffin is the included MAGIC software that reduces pops and clicks. It doesn't completely eliminate them, like the much more expensive SugarCube, but it is reported to substantially reduce the audibility of pops and clicks on badly worn records. Very long thread on the Puffin here.

Those are just two of the many choices, and somewhat controversial ones at that, in your price range. The problem is, within that price range, few stand out. Of course, buying used will save you some money, and some will advise you to start out with something inexpensive (like the Schiit Many, U-turn Pluto or Art DJ PreII) and save your money for a better phono stage. Once you get into the $750 - $1500 range, a lit of very significant, highly regarded phono stages become available. Again buying used in this segment can yield some real bargains. I an personally running a Parasound JC3 Jr. and love it. I have run it with both MM/MI and MC carts and it sounds great with both. I wouldn't have been able to afford a new one, but got a great deal on a slightly used sample within driving distance.

Parasound has a new phono stage out, the ZPhono XRM, that is in the same price range as the Parks Audio Puffin. As someone who likes to run two turntables, the ZPhono XRM has a cool feature that let's you run one MM/MI cartridge and one MC and switch between them with a front panel toggle. For me personally, it will come down to a choice between the Parks Audio Puffin and the Parasound ZPhono XRM for my secondary turntable. I'd love to do an in home comparison between the JC3 Jr. and the ZPhono XRM. If the XRM comes close to the sound quality of the JC3 Jr., it would be a no-brainer for me. Given the price difference, I don't expect it to be a viable replacement for the JC3 Jr., just a potential phono stage for my secondary table. Here's a review of the ZPPhono XRM:

Analog Planet (Michael Fremer), March 2020
Click to expand...
Hello, thank you a lot for your thorough reply!

The interconnects on the P3 aren't removable so, if that's an issue, it's one I can't fix. I'm more interested to keep using Goldring (the 1042 looks really nice and the recommended capacitance is 150-200 so that would be an issue already).

The Lounge, alongside the Phenomena, made me really interested. I read the thread on the SHF and most people look pleased. The issue is, again, the fact that I'm in Europe so I'm not sure how much I'd pay for shipping and taxes. It'd make it a lot pricier. I sent them an e-mail asking for shipping prices and I'll do the math afterwards.

Regarding the Puffin, I don't think introducing a digital signal on an analog source makes sense, does it?

You mentioning Parasound also made me curious about it so I found one here in Europe for around €300. Not the XRM unfortunately, but the regular Zphono. Do you have any idea if it's any good? For about the same price, I can get the Arcam rPhono (demo unit). Any idea if any of these would do me good? I wish I could go with the XRM, mainly because there's a mono button in there and I could eliminate my homemade Mono switch.

Thank you again for your replies. Looking forward to more people chiming in :)
 
I've been very happy with a Cambridge Duo phono pre, FWIW, and it gets good reviews. Can do MM and MC. I've owned a bunch of low-to-middle range phono pres, including EAR834 clones, the Lounge LCR, Pluto, Hagerman Bugle, etc, etc, and the Cambridge is the first one I've just left in place and mostly forgotten about it. It's that good to my ears and can be found around ~$300US.
 
dastinger said:
Hi, thank you so much for your reply!

You're not the first one to recommend me the Phenomena and it actually does look really good, but I can't find one on the used market right now unfortunately, at least looking on Hifi Shark. On top of that, I'm in Europe so I don't know if it'll ever be easy to find one since most I saw that sold before were in the US.

Is there anywhere else I can easily look? They don't sell it new anymore, right?
Click to expand...

The Musical Surroundings Phonomena and Nova (their higher-end model) are still sold new.
Those I suggested though, Phonomena and Phonomena II, are both older models and are often available through ebay sellers.
Prices vary quite a bit on ebay and seem a little high on them all right now. I’d pay no more than about $250 shipped for an original Phonomena in nice shape. Pay no more than about $325 shipped for a Phonomena II.

Take a look at the Musical Surroundings current phono preamp offerings here:

http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/brand/musical-surroundings
 
How about the PS Audio Phono Preamp, one for sale right now with Parts connexion mods, it will match you Pre.

look for this

PS Audio GCPH Phono Preamp with Underwood Mods

s-l1600.jpg


https://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/...hono-Preamplifier2-Owners-Manual-Rev-B-V2.pdf


Athanasios
 
DavidTT said:
I've been very happy with a Cambridge Duo phono pre, FWIW, and it gets good reviews. Can do MM and MC. I've owned a bunch of low-to-middle range phono pres, including EAR834 clones, the Lounge LCR, Pluto, Hagerman Bugle, etc, etc, and the Cambridge is the first one I've just left in place and mostly forgotten about it. It's that good to my ears and can be found around ~$300US.
Click to expand...
The Duo just went onto my list because of your recommendation! I'll read reviews and make a decision with this one in the bag too, thank you!

MisterDK said:
The Musical Surroundings Phonomena and Nova (their higher-end model) are still sold new.
Those I suggested though, Phonomena and Phonomena II, are both older models and are often available through ebay sellers.
Prices vary quite a bit on ebay and seem a little high on them all right now. I’d pay no more than about $250 shipped for an original Phonomena in nice shape. Pay no more than about $325 shipped for a Phonomena II.

Take a look at the Musical Surroundings current phono preamp offerings here:

http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/brand/musical-surroundings
Click to expand...
I feel stupid now. I have been searching for PhEnomena instead of Phonomena. I could actually find some now here in Europe and they're definitely in the mix! Thank you!

Nashou66 said:
How about the PS Audio Phono Preamp, one for sale right now with Parts connexion mods, it will match you Pre.

look for this

PS Audio GCPH Phono Preamp with Underwood Mods

s-l1600.jpg


https://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/...hono-Preamplifier2-Owners-Manual-Rev-B-V2.pdf


Athanasios
Click to expand...
I'd love to get one of these, but it's almost €700 (no shipping or taxes included) so it more than doubles my budget. I am able to go a bit higher than my initial budget, but not that much. Thank you for your recommendation though!

-----

Any words on the Arcam rPhono?
 
dastinger said:
Regarding the Puffin, I don't think introducing a digital signal on an analog source makes sense, does it?
Click to expand...

It may seem counterintuitive, but you should read the thread over at Steve Hoffman to see what the owners think of it. The designer, Shannon Parkss, knows what a good phono stage should sound like. His previous design was a tube phono stage called the Budgie that is highly valued on the used market.

dastinger said:
You mentioning Parasound also made me curious about it so I found one here in Europe for around €300. Not the XRM unfortunately, but the regular Zphono. Do you have any idea if it's any good? For about the same price, I can get the Arcam rPhono (demo unit). Any idea if any of these would do me good? I wish I could go with the XRM, mainly because there's a mono button in there and I could eliminate my homemade Mono switch.
Click to expand...

My only personal experience with Parasound phono stages is with the JC3 Jr. and it was the single biggest improvement in my system to date. Many folks love and recommend the lower priced Parasound models, but the sound quality definitely improves as you move up the chain (it should, given the price differences). Prior to purchasing my JC3 Jr. I did read an article comparing the standard ZPhono to the XRM and the Jc3 Jr. that stated the same, but went into a little more detail in the differences. I don't have a link handy,, but if I stumble across the article, I'll post a link.

Yes, a built-in mono switch on a phono stage is a handy feature. My JC3 Jr. has one and I use it whenever I play mono pressings. It really cuts down on the noise.

I have no experience with, or even any knowledge of, the Arcam rPhono. It doesn't seem to be as popular on this side of the pond, but that could just be due to a lack of dealers.
 
MCM_Fan said:
It may seem counterintuitive, but you should read the thread over at Steve Hoffman to see what the owners think of it. The designer, Shannon Parkss, knows what a good phono stage should sound like. His previous design was a tube phono stage called the Budgie that is highly valued on the used market.



My only personal experience with Parasound phono stages is with the JC3 Jr. and it was the single biggest improvement in my system to date. Many folks love and recommend the lower priced Parasound models, but the sound quality definitely improves as you move up the chain (it should, given the price differences). Prior to purchasing my JC3 Jr. I did read an article comparing the standard ZPhono to the XRM and the Jc3 Jr. that stated the same, but went into a little more detail in the differences. I don't have a link handy,, but if I stumble across the article, I'll post a link.

Yes, a built-in mono switch on a phono stage is a handy feature. My JC3 Jr. has one and I use it whenever I play mono pressings. It really cuts down on the noise.

I have no experience with, or even any knowledge of, the Arcam rPhono. It doesn't seem to be as popular on this side of the pond, but that could just be due to a lack of dealers.
Click to expand...
The Parasound Z Phono has mixed reviews, so it does not seem consensual like the others on the list. I never thought buying a phono stage without being able to just listen to a bunch would be so hard ahahah.

Right now, the list has the Arkam and the Phonomena II on it. I'll read about the Puffin and decide if I throw it in the mix.

Regarding the Arcam, it's really popular over here. A lot of reviews and good ones mostly. It also has options to change capacitance which is great.

I don't know if I'm about to decide or not, but more options are always welcome (I guess ahah).

Thank you for your feedback!
 
When you are in Europe, the brands that are available to you are going to be far different than what Americans have been exposed to. We will know some of the big brands such as Cambridge, Rotel, Musical Fidelity, Linn, and so on and so forth. We won't know those small value driven companies that are the hidden gems for England and or Europe. Unless its one of the interesting phono stages coming from Ebay that we all have access to, such as the cloned EAR 834 that Douk Audio and other manufacturers put out, well the recommendations that come from this site are unlikely to be found in your neck of the woods. Unless it comes from one of the AK members from England such as Dazaa, or a few of the others that choose to visit AK.

Wish you the best of luck in your search, I am sure there are some very good affordable phono stages in your area.
 
Mister Pig said:
When you are in Europe, the brands that are available to you are going to be far different than what Americans have been exposed to. We will know some of the big brands such as Cambridge, Rotel, Musical Fidelity, Linn, and so on and so forth. We won't know those small value driven companies that are the hidden gems for England and or Europe. Unless its one of the interesting phono stages coming from Ebay that we all have access to, such as the cloned EAR 834 that Douk Audio and other manufacturers put out, well the recommendations that come from this site are unlikely to be found in your neck of the woods. Unless it comes from one of the AK members from England such as Dazaa, or a few of the others that choose to visit AK.

Wish you the best of luck in your search, I am sure there are some very good affordable phono stages in your area.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for your input. I had never had this POV but you're right. I don't know, I thought I never saw AK as a mostly American based site, but it is and that's why most of the recommendations are hard to come by here in Europe. If only I knew good audio forums that have lots of Europeans ah. Will try to find some, thank you!
 
MisterDK said:
I think you’ll probably get plenty of ideas from other folks but I thought I should mention the phono preamps that I’m liking right now. Those are the Musical Surroundings Phonomena and Phonomena II. I’ve had the Mani (couple of, early and more recent) and while they sound good with some MM/MI cartridges, they didn’t offer the adjustability I wanted as far as gain and load settings. The Phonomena has all the settings you’re likely to want for about any MM/MI cartridge, and for most MC’s. They sound very good to me as well.
You can pick up a nice pre-owned Phonomena II for about twice the price of a Mani. I think they’re worth considering.
Click to expand...

This^^^^^^^^^^^
Regards,
Jim
 
Nashou66 said:
How about the PS Audio Phono Preamp, one for sale right now with Parts connexion mods, it will match you Pre.

look for this

PS Audio GCPH Phono Preamp with Underwood Mods

s-l1600.jpg


https://www.psaudio.com/wp-content/...hono-Preamplifier2-Owners-Manual-Rev-B-V2.pdf


Athanasios
Click to expand...
I own this model and was happy with it till I upgraded to a Parasound JC3+. Talk about a great upgrade path! The Parasound will be my last phono pre amp. Check out the reviews on it. It punches way above its price. Look for a used one and save $$$. That's what I did. The PS Audio now resides in my vintage system upstairs in the living room.
 
gizzyman47 said:
I own this model and was happy with it till I upgraded to a Parasound JC3+. Talk about a great upgrade path! The Parasound will be my last phono pre amp. Check out the reviews on it. It punches way above its price. Look for a used one and save $$$. That's what I did. The PS Audio now resides in my vintage system upstairs in the living room.
Click to expand...
I have looked and, unfortunately, we're talking 3 times my max budget so it's not a matter of saving pocket money. The issue with saving to buy a better one in a year or so is that I need the phono stage next week/two weeks from now at the most so I need to follow my budget :/
 
Sorry for the double post but, so far, my list is topped with the Arcam rPhono and the Phonomena II that I can get for about the same price.

Both look pretty good on paper, users have recommended me both and reviews are glaring for both as well. I think they were at the same price point too so I wouldn't be surprised if they're toe to toe.

Anyway, I never worried about input capacitance. Always used integrated phono pres so there was not much I could do. The thing is, my cart right now asks for a capacitance between 100 and 200 pf. The cartridges I think I would upgrade to in the future are almost all on the 150 to 200 range. From what I understand, I need to also add the interconnects capacitance to this, correct? So, the Phonomena offers 200 and 300 only while the Arcam offers 120, 220, 340 and 440. Do you think that this should be a decisive factor? Will I ever need all this options or the 200 and 300 are enough?

Thank you in advance!

--EDIT--

I measured the capacitance on my Rega P3. Removed the white and blue cables from the cartridge, connected on of the multimeter cables to the shielding of the left RCA and the other to the tip of the left RCA. This is the result:

jvq6L9E.jpg


Isn't this really low? Or do I need to do some type of math to achieve the correct values?

Also, this was measured on the P3 RCAs, but I have a homemade Mono/Stereo switch box so those RCAs go into the box and then I have another cable from the box to the amp. Measuring on the left RCA that goes to the amp (with it connected to the box and to the turntable ofc), it only adds about 1pF... Is this correct?
 
Last edited:
dastinger said:
Hello everyone,

I've been listening to my collection for years with a pair of B&W DM305, a Marantz SR73/Denon AVR/Pioneer SX408, Rega P3 2016 w/ a Goldring E3 (MM) and a B&W ASW600.

The amps are a lot because I have been swapping, but it's a pretty much middle of the road/low end system.

I have the opportunity to buy my uncle's setup and will do it around next week. It's as follows:

Amp: Forté Audio 4k
Preamp: PS Audio 6.0
Speakers: B&W 804 Matrix

The only thing I'll keep is, obviously, the P3 and the sub replacing everything else.

There's an issue though. The phono pre-amp on those PS Audios was optional and my uncle didn't give two cents about vinyl in the mid 90s like almost everyone else so I need to buy one separately.

Now, I'm totally new to buying phono pres so I'm not sure what to look for. I don't want to go broke so I'm looking for the best option at around the €200/300 mark. Is this realistic? I don't want to buy a phono pre that won't let me enjoy that great setup at it's full potential so I'm not sure if I need to go higher than that. I saw the Vincents, the Mani, the Regas... any of these?

Also, I know my cartridge will then be the worst part on the setup, but I'll probably leave that for later. I don't know if I'll ever buy an MC cart, so if that's something that makes the price higher and/or narrows down my options considerably, I'll be happy with a MM only phono preamp.

I'm looking at snatching one this Black Friday, but the used market is also an option.

Thank you so much in advance!
Click to expand...
Any interest in DIY?
 
wyn palmer said:
Any interest in DIY?
Click to expand...
Well, that would be a fun project, but how much SQ can I get with a homemade phono stage? And where would I get the parts? I mean, I can solder and have the tools, but that's pretty much it. Unless I have a manual, I'd be totally lost.
 
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