CD Transport Emulator

DrDarkFish

DrDarkFish

Active Member
Hi All,

I've had recent problems with the laser for my Pioneer PD-91 CD Player and it got me thinking:

Lasers for old transports like mine are becoming harder and harder to find, with some models almost impossible to source any longer.

It would be a travesty to allow some of these players to die out because for the most part they are built and designed extremely well, (not to mention great sounding in their own way).

I know that for vintage gaming consoles there have been a number of successful recent implementations of 'Optical Drive Emulators' for older gaming consoles (Sega Saturn, Playstation etc..) - this got me wondering of how hard it would be to implement something similar for vintage CD players.

The idea would be that this 'Emulation Board' could replace the CD transport completely with a SD Memory card or hard-drive and simulates the process of playing a CD allowing your player's DAC and output stage to still be put to good use.

Of course, this would be a shame for a lot of really well built transports (like in my Pioneer PD-91), however, in a world without suitable replacement lasers, what other options would you have to keep these players alive?

My hunch is that something like this must be possible, given that it works with gaming consoles (which have the added hurdle of anti-piracy protection)..

Thoughts?

Fish
 
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What would be the point? If you're not using the laser to read the contents of a CD, and instead relying on solid state storage for playback, then you may as well just be streaming.

Why bother using a CD player as a "shell" for this contraption? Is it just because you like the look of the old gear?

I mean, that's fine -- you can shove modern parts into the husk of an older CD player and use it as a playback device for digital files, sure. Nothing stopping you aside from technical know-how and some handy modding skills.

I just don't see any market for this, so you'd be on your own to DIY it. Good luck.

I think a better solution would be to just put a new drive tray and laser assembly in. Even if it's not "period correct"
 
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I kind of like the idea and it brought back a memory where someone had created ( or maybe just envisioned it ) a device to 'read' vinyl LP's that was optical. So in effect, the reader did not wear out the LP's - at least not in a physical sense.

As @benricci said, the market is small now perhaps BUT the future is wide open... Look what is happening to cassettes. Rationally, I do not understand the NEED or the coolness of that medium.. Could 'vintage' CD players like your PD-91 become the next over priced tool of the masses ?

In order to keep those nice players working, the method to repair them would need to be cheap and easy, otherwise, just buy a boombox and tap into it's innards..

Designing a 'emulation board' would likely be too expensive. Instead, create a method to economically rebuild dead laser pickups ( I think I saw a thread where someone did just that..)
...
 
mister-fixit said:
I kind of like the idea and it brought back a memory where someone had created ( or maybe just envisioned it ) a device to 'read' vinyl LP's that was optical. So in effect, the reader did not wear out the LP's - at least not in a physical sense.

As @benricci said, the market is small now perhaps BUT the future is wide open... Look what is happening to cassettes. Rationally, I do not understand the NEED or the coolness of that medium.. Could 'vintage' CD players like your PD-91 become the next over priced tool of the masses ?

In order to keep those nice players working, the method to repair them would need to be cheap and easy, otherwise, just buy a boombox and tap into it's innards..

Designing a 'emulation board' would likely be too expensive. Instead, create a method to economically rebuild dead laser pickups ( I think I saw a thread where someone did just that..)
...
Click to expand...
The difference with cassettes, though, is that people buying tapes today want to actually be able to play the tapes in a tape deck. It's about using the physical object.

What the OP seems to be describing is basically turning old, non-functional CD players into big, glorified iPods that don't require actual CDs.

So without the format itself involved in playback any longer, I don't see the point (or the market) of such a device. You can stream songs from your phone now, why would you go through the time and expense of gutting a CD player's internals to install a hard-drive based playback device?

I guess I'm failing to grasp the point of this endeavor. Perhaps I'm missing something?
 
benricci said:
What would be the point? If you're not using the laser to read the contents of a CD, and instead relying on solid state storage for playback, then you may as well just be streaming.

Why bother using a CD player as a "shell" for this contraption? Is it just because you like the look of the old gear?

I mean, that's fine -- you can shove modern parts into the husk of an older CD player and use it as a playback device for digital files, sure. Nothing stopping you aside from technical know-how and some handy modding skills.

I just don't see any market for this, so you'd be on your own to DIY it. Good luck.

I think a better solution would be to just put a new drive tray and laser assembly in. Even if it's not "period correct"
Click to expand...

benricci said:
The difference with cassettes, though, is that people buying tapes today want to actually be able to play the tapes in a tape deck. It's about using the physical object.

What the OP seems to be describing is basically turning old, non-functional CD players into big, glorified iPods that don't require actual CDs.

So without the format itself involved in playback any longer, I don't see the point (or the market) of such a device. You can stream songs from your phone now, why would you go through the time and expense of gutting a CD player's internals to install a hard-drive based playback device?

I guess I'm failing to grasp the point of this endeavor. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Click to expand...

I dont agree with your point of view at all, its strangely absolutist . Further, you have made a number of restrictive assumptions around my intentions: At what point did I say I wouldnt stream music through my dacs, play music on my other cd player or any of my 800+ vinyl records?

Putting that aside and to the crux of this issue: there is considerably more to a CD player than only its transport. In fact, Id argue that the DAC, output stage and overall design implementation is a lot more important than how data is read. Im not at all saying that the transport isnt important, all Im saying is that if the transport is doing its job correctly, then you would never know it was there at all.

Take the Pioneer PD-91 I mentioned in my original post: this player is one of the best built pieces of audio equipment Ive ever seen, let alone owned, period. More importantly, it has an amazing sound and character that I dont think you can easily replicate. When the laser finally dies, it would be a shame to simply put it out to pasture because it cant be repaired.

My idea about a transport emulator is about preservation and choice. Of course this kind of concept would seem silly to implement on a cheap old cd player, its more intended for players that are worth preserving.

Not everything newer is better. If that was the case, I would have probably stopped listening to my LPs years ago.
 
mister-fixit said:
I kind of like the idea and it brought back a memory where someone had created ( or maybe just envisioned it ) a device to 'read' vinyl LP's that was optical. So in effect, the reader did not wear out the LP's - at least not in a physical sense.

As @benricci said, the market is small now perhaps BUT the future is wide open... Look what is happening to cassettes. Rationally, I do not understand the NEED or the coolness of that medium.. Could 'vintage' CD players like your PD-91 become the next over priced tool of the masses ?

In order to keep those nice players working, the method to repair them would need to be cheap and easy, otherwise, just buy a boombox and tap into it's innards..

Designing a 'emulation board' would likely be too expensive. Instead, create a method to economically rebuild dead laser pickups ( I think I saw a thread where someone did just that..)
...
Click to expand...


Thanks for the constructive reply ;)

I believe there is actually a company that makes laser based vinyl turnables, however they are used mainly for archival work.

In terms of your points on cost and ease of installation: I can really only look at how this has been achieved with video game consoles as a point of comparison: I believe these emulation units sell for $200 to $400 and can be installed by basically anyone with half an idea of what they are doing.

I agree the market would be very niche, which is why a design that was multi unit compatible would the better idea. Im not technical enough to know the feasibility of that, but it would certainly be my focus if I were designing it.

That said, hobbyists often create products for the betterment of their community not for huge financial gain, so where there is a will, there may be a way!
 
DrDarkFish said:
I agree the market would be very niche, which is why a design that was multi unit compatible would the better idea. Im not technical enough to know the feasibility of that, but it would certainly be my focus if I were designing it.

That said, hobbyists often create products for the betterment of their community not for huge financial gain, so where there is a will, there may be a way!
Click to expand...

But again, you are basically trying to invent what is essentially a giant iPod. A hard disk plus a DAC plus audio outputs. Am I missing something? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely interested to know if there's some aspect of this plan I'm not understanding.

I am really struggling to see the point...other than you like the look of the CD player and want to continue using its DAC, I guess? When at that point, it ceases to be a CD player altogether...and again you're basically re-inventing an iPod for no real benefit.

I get it, you like the sound of your particular CD player. But popping a hard disc inside and trying to finagle a way to re-use the DAC isn't going to get you a CD player.

The emulators you keep referencing are specific to video games, and will run those games without discs. There's not really an "emulator" per se, when it comes to CDs. You're basically talking about a version of iTunes or some other library management software loaded with files. So you'd likely need a small computer or something, not an emulator. Maybe a Raspberry Pi somehow connected to the DAC inside the chassis?

I don't know, maybe you can do a better job explaining what you're trying to accomplish so I can visualize your end goal. Because it doesn't seem like a project that couldn't be done better with a smartphone and nice DAC.
 
benricci said:
But again, you are basically trying to invent what is essentially a giant iPod. A hard disk plus a DAC plus audio outputs. Am I missing something? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely interested to know if there's some aspect of this plan I'm not understanding.

I am really struggling to see the point...other than you like the look of the CD player and want to continue using its DAC, I guess? When at that point, it ceases to be a CD player altogether...and again you're basically re-inventing an iPod for no real benefit.

I get it, you like the sound of your particular CD player. But popping a hard disc inside and trying to finagle a way to re-use the DAC isn't going to get you a CD player.

The emulators you keep referencing are specific to video games, and will run those games without discs. There's not really an "emulator" per se, when it comes to CDs. You're basically talking about a version of iTunes or some other library management software loaded with files. So you'd likely need a small computer or something, not an emulator. Maybe a Raspberry Pi somehow connected to the DAC inside the chassis?

I don't know, maybe you can do a better job explaining what you're trying to accomplish so I can visualize your end goal. Because it doesn't seem like a project that couldn't be done better with a smartphone and nice DAC.
Click to expand...

I think you might miss my point.

Assume for a moment that I have all of my cds on a hardisk ripped as ISOs. Assume also that my Pioneer's laser dies and its simply not able to be repaired due to lack of available parts. If I enjoy listening to my CD player because I like the sound of it (as a preference) AND I now have the ability to continue doing so because my proposed device effectively acts as a 'life line' to my extinct player, isnt that a good thing?

Again, for the avoidance of doubt, nothing is stopping me also listening to my music through my dedicated DACs, I simply want to listen to it the way it sounded through my cd player.

Also, I think you dont understand what Im saying in terms of the optical drive emulators for video game consoles. These devices are called 'ODEs' for short and are physical boards that sit inside the console in complete replacement of the cd rom drive and act like a cd rom. Im not refering to software based emulation.
 
DrDarkFish said:
I think you might miss my point.

Assume for a moment that I have all of my cds on a hardisk ripped as ISOs. Assume also that my Pioneer's laser dies and its simply not able to be repaired due to lack of available parts. If I enjoy listening to my CD player because I like the sound of it (as a preference) AND I now have the ability to continue doing so because my proposed device effectively acts as a 'life line' to my extinct player, isnt that a good thing?

Again, for the avoidance of doubt, nothing is stopping me also listening to my music through my dedicated DACs, I simply want to listen to it the way it sounded through my cd player.

Also, I think you dont understand what I'm saying in terms of the optical drive emulators for video game consoles. These devices are called 'ODEs' for short and are physical boards that sit inside the console in complete replacement of the cd rom drive and act like a cd rom. Im not refering to software based emulation.
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I understand what the emulator boards are, I've used one for Sega Saturn. I just don't see anyone making such a device for old CD players because we've already solved that problem.

We've got computers, FLAC, hi-res streaming, etc as a means to still listen to digital audio files without CDs. We can rip bit-perfect copies of our CDs and listen to them on a multitude of devices in a multitude of ways -- modding the physical hardware that you used to use for CD playback once it's broken is such a ridiculously small niche that I'd venture to say you're really the only target customer for such a device.

Basically it boils down to you having a sentimental attachment to your CD player's internal DAC, really. And I get it, I have attachments to a lot of my stuff, too. But I really don't see this as much of a needed solution, and can't foresee anyone actually making something like this for you. Sorry.

It would be 1000% times easier to just replace the CD laser assembly and tray, and continue using it as intended.
 
Keeping the player because you like the looks would IMO be the only practical reasons for doing this. Since you would be playing files anyway a new stand alone DAC could more than likely easily provide better SQ and there would probably be less money involved.
 
benricci said:
I understand what the emulator boards are, I've used one for Sega Saturn. I just don't see anyone making such a device for old CD players because we've already solved that problem.

We've got computers, FLAC, hi-res streaming, etc as a means to still listen to digital audio files without CDs. We can rip bit-perfect copies of our CDs and listen to them on a multitude of devices in a multitude of ways -- modding the physical hardware that you used to use for CD playback once it's broken is such a ridiculously small niche that I'd venture to say you're really the only target customer for such a device.

Basically it boils down to you having a sentimental attachment to your CD player's internal DAC, really. And I get it, I have attachments to a lot of my stuff, too. But I really don't see this as much of a needed solution, and can't foresee anyone actually making something like this for you. Sorry.

It would be 1000% times easier to just replace the CD laser assembly and tray, and continue using it as intended.
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Well if you've already solved that problem for audio, why do you use an ODE for your Sega Saturn? You can emulate games perfectly on pc, why use the original hardware?

I think you are giving too much credit to the "newer is better and easier therefore why bother" argument.

Having spent time a/bing cds through my Pioneer against multiple DACs there are often occasions I very much prefer the sound of it. Whether thats driven by nostalgia, harmonic distortions or whatever that might me, its actually beside the point.

And sure, I take the point that you could of course appropriate a completely different cd transport for the purpose and that may be easier. But why not explore alternatives.

My original post never suggested this as a 'get rich' idea, simply a discussion.

I see that you feel rather strongly about it.
 
GChief said:
Keeping the player because you like the looks would IMO be the only practical reasons for doing this. Since you would be playing files anyway a new stand alone DAC could more than likely easily provide better SQ and there would probably be less money involved.
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"Sound Quality" , at the avoidance of opening up a can of worms, I think we should just agree that this concept couldnt be more subjective.

Why use tubes?
Why vintage amplifiers?
Why vinyl?
 
DrDarkFish said:
"Sound Quality" , at the avoidance of opening up a can of worms, I think we should just agree that this concept couldnt be more subjective.

Why use tubes?
Why vintage amplifiers?
Why vinyl?
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Just giving my thoughts you asked for. I have tried quit a few older CDP’s acting as transports with newer DACs with an audio club, while it is subjective most including myself preferred the DACs SQ.

DrDarkFish said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
And was this not in your original post?

Maybe “thoughts?, but only if you agree with me”

Hope it works out for you :thumbsup:
 
GChief said:
Just giving my thoughts you asked for. I have tried quit a few older CDP’s acting as transports with newer DACs with an audio club, while it is subjective most including myself preferred the DACs SQ.


And was this not in your original post?

Maybe “thoughts?, but only if you agree with me”

Hope it works out for you :thumbsup:
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You made the point that "there would be no use for the idea other than aesthetics", I simply furthered the discussion by pointing out that " sound quality" was subjective.

You can disagree with me, I wouldnt have orginally posted if I didnt want feedback.

Would you have preferred if I had said: "oh youre right, modern dacs sound so much better and I dont know what Ive been doing for all these years playing through my cd player"? Hahaha
 
DrDarkFish said:
You made the point that "there would be no use for the idea other than aesthetics", I simply furthered the discussion by pointing out that " sound quality" was subjective.

You can disagree with me, I wouldnt have orginally posted if I didnt want feedback.

Would you have preferred if I had said: "oh youre right, modern dacs sound so much better and I dont know what Ive been doing for all these years playing through my cd player"? Hahaha
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IME it’s typically (not always) a true statement with old CDP and new decent DACs. One of the CDP’s we used in the “test” was the same player you have. Most preferred it playing to a Schiit Modi and SMSL M8a.

Again just giving thoughts that you asked for. And my opinion is valid about the looks things, it an opinion after all.

And like I said hope you get it to work for you.
:beerchug:

Edit: and yes what SQ someone likes is subjective. But when the majority have the same comments about clarity, detail and soundstage being better it may be a thing :dunno:

Edit: I txt my uncle earlier (his club did the “test”) and he just answers, he doesn’t think we had a PD-91, just 3 elite models, he is waiting for the guy that brought them over to respond.
 
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GChief said:
IME it’s typically (not always) a true statement with old CDP and new decent DACs. One of the CDP’s we used in the “test” was the same player you have. Most preferred it playing to a Schiit Modi and SMSL M8a.

Again just giving thoughts that you asked for. And my opinion is valid about the looks things, it an opinion after all.

And like I said hope you get it to work for you.
:beerchug:

Edit: and yes what SQ someone likes is subjective. But when the majority have the same comments about clarity, detail and soundstage being better it may be a thing :dunno:
Click to expand...


Dont get me wrong, there are times I certainly prefer my 'modern' dacs to my vintage CDP. But as you would have see in your comparison session, its not always the case.

Each to their own.
 
Did we ever learn why simply replacing the laser pick up/assembly is not an option? Pioneer basically used the same standard tray and assembly in all of their units for like 20 years. Even including your model, as far as I remember.

There are probably literally tens of thousands of these things floating around that you could salvage as donor units. And any complement tech could do the swap in a matter of minutes.

Just curious - these parts were mass produced by the buttload for many years and are not unobtanium. If you truly love the DAC that much, this would seem like the much more sensible option.
 
DrDarkFish said:
Dont get me wrong, there are times I certainly prefer my 'modern' dacs to my vintage CDP. But as you would have see in your comparison session, its not always the case.

Each to their own.
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It’s all good!! We are just talking...
my thoughts are just from someone that, so far, has always preferred an external DAC over the CDP by itself.
:beerchug:
 
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