Comparison of the Big Boys? - 2A3, 805, 211, 300B, and the like

Let's talk about MY needs, as OP, again, shall we? :music:

So far you've offered some useful tidbits of information that leads me to think I can replace my Willsenton R8 with a Line Magnetic (LM-508iA) using 805 tubes yielding 48 wpc. That's comparable to the Willsenton's 45 wpc with KT88s in UL. The 845 might be an option.at 22 wpc (LM-218ia) plus it's about 25% less. The other Chi-Fi manufacturers offer similar models at similar prices with features, ergonomics, and aesthetics differing slightly.

The 2A3, 300b, and 211 won't yield the power minimum I want - or am I missing something. Besides power, is there much of a sonic difference between the 805 and the 845?

What I'm told to expect is less "hifi" sound, more or less, and an increase in "naturalness." I could flip the Willsenton and get the LM-508iA for about $1500 net, plus shipping.

Would it be worth it? :idea:
 
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Coytee said:
Having owned some:

McIntosh MC-30's
Viva 300B SET
Quad II's
George Wright 2A3's SET
McIntosh MC-2102
Transcendent SE-OTL

I'd say to consider some OTL style. My experience (Khorns at the time) was they sounded the most "real" but the version I had were too under powered for me.
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The OTL is on top and the real deal. But lets face it. Its more suitable for people that already acquired the sound of lets say 300b. Youre seeking for purity and requires a lot of listening and maintaining experience plus tube cost in this category is 200% and up more than EL34.
 
Yes and getting a good steak might take more effort and cost than getting a good hamburger, no?

(not said as a smart alec…. I'm first in line to enjoy a good hamburger!!)

Point being there are different rungs on a ladder.... I found the sound of the OTL to be the most natural sounding of all I experienced. Still.....today, I'm using two Crown K2's (I actively biamp) and the speakers are around 104/watt.... so stupid amount of headroom and I'm only using a fraction of the power AND at that, I also only have the gains at about 25% and it's STILL able to push you out of the room if you want.

For the cash I pocketed by selling the tube amps and kept in my pocket verses the couple rungs of the ladder I might have declined....it was a totally acceptable tradeoff!

Yeah, don't get between me and a good hamburger nor a good steak!

:thumbsup:
 
FauxHall said:
Let's talk about MY needs, as OP, again, shall we? :music:

So far you've offered some useful tidbits of information that leads me to think I can replace my Willsenton R8 with a Line Magnetic (LM-508iA) using 805 tubes yielding 48 wpc. That's comparable to the Willsenton's 45 wpc with KT88s in UL. The 845 might be an option.at 22 wpc (LM-218ia) plus it's about 25% less. The other Chi-Fi manufacturers offer similar models at similar prices with features, ergonomics, and aesthetics differing slightly.

The 2A3, 300b, and 211 won't yield the power minimum I want - or am I missing something. Besides power, is there much of a sonic difference between the 805 and the 845?

What I'm told to expect is less "hifi" sound, more or less, and an increase in "naturalness." I could flip the Willsenton and get the LM-508iA for about $1500 net, plus shipping.

Would it be worth it? :idea:
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My suggestion for is if you can get an amp, more likely a 300b that you can demo in your house and returned without too much cost would be you best option. Its a good start beside other tubes you mentioned for some of them have more voltage and can be lethal as they are meant for broadcasting tubes.
A lot of people are saying that the 300b are more suitable on acoustic sound. but if you play it on electronic sound its all over the place. Not on my case. I'm using an aggressive 300b amp and speakers so I can still enjoy all the way to 80's rock. In my opinion the kt88 tube amp produces more bass and good highs while the EL34 has very slightly lesser bass than kt88 and combined with a sweet midrange and very good high, it can still rock the house.
The 300b amps are popular with its magic midrange and holographic sound. The highs are perfect too. Coming from the sound of the EL34 is like you turned on the highest analog equalizer/sound shaper when you listen to it. its like an EL34 in steroids. There are lots of people saying that their bass is not that good. it depends on how the amp was voiced and setup. Mine has tons of bass. Very holographic sound in depth.
The only downside in majority is pairing it with the right speaker for It requires high sensitive to drive 8-watts. 95db input sensitivity is a good start, Im not really sure about Chinese amps. A lot of them are not quite good especially with the output transformers. Its from a sale point of view.
 
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Coytee said:
Yes and getting a good steak might take more effort and cost than getting a good hamburger, no?

(not said as a smart alec…. I'm first in line to enjoy a good hamburger!!)

Point being there are different rungs on a ladder.... I found the sound of the OTL to be the most natural sounding of all I experienced. Still.....today, I'm using two Crown K2's (I actively biamp) and the speakers are around 104/watt.... so stupid amount of headroom and I'm only using a fraction of the power AND at that, I also only have the gains at about 25% and it's STILL able to push you out of the room if you want.

For the cash I pocketed by selling the tube amps and kept in my pocket verses the couple rungs of the ladder I might have declined....it was a totally acceptable tradeoff!

Yeah, don't get between me and a good hamburger nor a good steak!

:thumbsup:
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I heard the Pinnacle 300b mono-blocks. Its mesmerizing.
 
rudolfo said:
My suggestion for is if you can get an amp, more likely a 300b that you can demo in your house and returned without too much cost would be you best option.
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If you had read the thread, you would know that this is not an option.

Nor is a 300b powerful enough for my long-term needs - too specialized. It seems to come down to a 805 or an 845, new from China. My house current is 240 Vac. The Line Magnetic LM-508iA is about $2200 USD plus shipping. I'd sell my Willsenton locally to recoup some of the cost.

But thanks for trying to help.
 
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Palustris said:
OK, that's a first for me: I didn't know speakers could be effeminate or masculine! However, Mr. Nutsfortubes has a very valid point: with 99dB @ 2.83V / 1m speakers you are probably only using one or two watts for 90% of the time. While it is true that you only need a watt or two, my own experience is that it pays to have headroom and so for my own 100dB speakers I find that 10W is about the minimum to get the lowest notes of a string bass at a realistic level.

So in my opinion (always at odds with the prevailing paradigm), a SE 2A3 amp or a SE300B amp will give you great sound for most music with the Klipsch speakers, but for realistic crescendos you need a bit more power. My PP HY69 amp puts out a clean and reliable 10W, but with a bit of H2 distortion the amp can put out an easy 20W because the power supply is capable of instantaneous current from a very low output impedance supply (you will never get this with a Chinese amp). Just to be clear; this amp is a strange beast: push pull directly heated pentodes wired as pentodes with screen regulators. So this amp breaks all the common assumptions: indirectly heated power tubes are triodes; single ended is "better" than push pull; and that pentodes should be run ultra linear.

So what's my point? Experiment. Don't be afraid to try different approaches. Don't make assumptions about how much power you need until you test. Don't expect a cheap Chinese product to satisfy your audio experiments.

View attachment 2080680
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Love the setup. I got a similar dual setup too. What a monster tone. I dropped the voltage down 63ma to tune down the heat.
 
Here's a Chinese manufacturer of PP 300B monoblocs at 25 wpc:

https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en...00b-tube-monoblock-power-amplifier-pair-p-430

So this would be better than an 805 or an 845 machine? Why? It cost about $800 to $1000 USD more delivered than the single chassis Line Magnetic LM-805iA.

Meixing-MingDa-MC300-C-300B-tube-Monoblock-Power-Amplifier-0.jpg

(Not too pretty, unfortunately, and low input impedance too.)

mhardy6647 said:
The OP has pretty strong opinions
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Based on careful consideration and balancing of my listening experiences, my music preferences, speaker inventory, logistic difficulties, financial sensitivities, future life plans, and risk aversion, yes, I have high confidence in my position and in my decision-making abilities.

The 300B low power amps have an enthusiastic following, that I'm sure is justified, but I don't see 8 wpc working for me. With my Fortes, the current Willsenton can deliver between 25 and 45 wpc, depending on tubes and topology. I can tell the positive difference power makes in bass response - 25 wpc is marginal to my taste as I'm hearing degradation by then.

This really resolves the question, for me - the buyer - to whether an LM-508iA at 48 wpc (or equivalent brand) will be worth the extra cash over my current KT88 configuration in delivered sound quality.

Line-magnetic-LM-508IA-300B-805-tube-Amp-Class-A-single-ended002.jpg
Much more handsome!
 
FauxHall said:
Let's talk about MY needs, as OP, again, shall we? :music:

So far you've offered some useful tidbits of information that leads me to think I can replace my Willsenton R8 with a Line Magnetic (LM-508iA) using 805 tubes yielding 48 wpc. That's comparable to the Willsenton's 45 wpc with KT88s in UL. The 845 might be an option.at 22 wpc (LM-218ia) plus it's about 25% less. The other Chi-Fi manufacturers offer similar models at similar prices with features, ergonomics, and aesthetics differing slightly.

The 2A3, 300b, and 211 won't yield the power minimum I want - or am I missing something. Besides power, is there much of a sonic difference between the 805 and the 845?

What I'm told to expect is less "hifi" sound, more or less, and an increase in "naturalness." I could flip the Willsenton and get the LM-508iA for about $1500 net, plus shipping.

Would it be worth it? :idea:
Click to expand...

SE amps of 2A3 and 300B sure won't make the power. 211 barely, and same goes for 805/845...their plate ratings are the same, so their maximum power out shall also be comparable. The 805/211 will deliver more IFF their grid can go positive, which is a cost adder. Getting the power you seek at the quality you will expect for the pile of $$$ you'll lay out is an open question IMO.

I stick with Class A designs, so power output is basically a function of plate dissipation capability. There are none of those in the price point you'll find acceptable. Zero.

There are also few folks who will do build-an-amp-for-hire that would take this sort of project on at a price point you'll find acceptable. It is a lot of work, and the only way I see it working is you take on a hobbiest who will sell the project when it has been completed and they're moving on to the next one. The number of those folks who turn out exceptional work is even smaller.

Build your own anyway. With the budget you have in mind, you should just be able to manage it. There is enough help available here to guide you through it.
cheers,
Douglas
 
FauxHall said:
Here's a Chinese manufacturer of PP 300B monoblocs at 25 wpc:

https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en...00b-tube-monoblock-power-amplifier-pair-p-430

So this would be better than an 805 or an 845 machine? Why? It cost about $800 to $1000 USD more delivered than the single chassis Line Magnetic LM-805iA.

View attachment 2083291

(Not too pretty, unfortunately, and low input impedance too.)



Based on careful consideration and balancing of my listening experiences, my music preferences, speaker inventory, logistic difficulties, financial sensitivities, future life plans, and risk aversion, yes, I have high confidence in my position and in my decision-making abilities.

The 300B low power amps have an enthusiastic following, that I'm sure is justified, but I don't see 8 wpc working for me. With my Fortes, the current Willsenton can deliver between 25 and 45 wpc, depending on tubes and topology. I can tell the positive difference power makes in bass response - 25 wpc is marginal to my taste as I'm hearing degradation by then.

This really resolves the question, for me - the buyer - to whether an LM-508iA at 48 wpc (or equivalent brand) will be worth the extra cash over my current KT88 configuration in delivered sound quality.

View attachment 2083295
Much more handsome!
Click to expand...

For Chinese amplifiers, I have heard good things from Audio Space. Their push pull 300B integrated sounds much better than the KT88 or EL34 versions in my opinion, and the Reference series using 300B tubes in push pull parallel are superb sounding amplifiers. They bench test well too. They are however not cheap.

I would stick to equipment which has at least some sort of established reputation, and positive reviews from a reputable publication. I have worked on more than one Chinese amplifier which looks the part but has gross design or manufacturing errors and flat out fake specifications which are significant enough to defeat the purpose of owning an expensive tube amplifier in the first place. I won't go in to brand specifics here, but if it seems too good to be true for a certain price point, it probably is. Photos and specs won't tell much about what you need to know here, because the Chinese vendors know very well how to make things appear better than they are, and your recourse is non existant if there is a problem.
 
maxhifi said:
For Chinese amplifiers, I have heard good things from Audio Space. Their push pull 300B integrated sounds much better than the KT88 or EL34 versions in my opinion, and the Reference series using 300B tubes in push pull parallel are superb sounding amplifiers. They bench test well too. They are however not cheap.

I would stick to equipment which has at least some sort of established reputation, and positive reviews from a reputable publication. I have worked on more than one Chinese amplifier which looks the part but has gross design or manufacturing errors and flat out fake specifications which are significant enough to defeat the purpose of owning an expensive tube amplifier in the first place. I won't go in to brand specifics here, but if it seems too good to be true for a certain price point, it probably is. Photos and specs won't tell much about what you need to know here, because the Chinese vendors know very well how to make things appear better than they are, and your recourse is non existant if there is a problem.
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where did you demo the audiospace? I was looking at that amp 3 years ago and looks promising. I spoke to the owner but I wasn't really too sure or explained well how the warranty goes. I end up having a pp assembled. I'm actually listening to it now at the my house. The pp amps are earth shakers. I also have a set 300b. its incredible on my JBL studio 280.
 
rudolfo said:
where did you demo the audiospace? I was looking at that amp 3 years ago and looks promising. I spoke to the owner but I wasn't really too sure or explained well how the warranty goes. I end up having a pp assembled. I'm actually listening to it now at the my house. The pp amps are earth shakers. I also have a set 300b. its incredible on my JBL studio 280.
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A local dealer. I also do repair work on gear, and have had several of them at home for routine work like biasing new tubes and other minor repairs. I always listen to equipment before I let it go back to an owner, and Audio Space gear is always well constructed and good sounding. I really like their LS 3/5A reproduction too. Rather than derail this thread though PM me if you have additional questions.
 
maxhifi said:
A local dealer. I also do repair work on gear, and have had several of them at home for routine work like biasing new tubes and other minor repairs. I always listen to equipment before I let it go back to an owner, and Audio Space gear is always well constructed and good sounding. I really like their LS 3/5A reproduction too. Rather than derail this thread though PM me if you have additional questions.
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Great. I'll pm you a bit later. just finishing up here for lunch. Happy new year!
 
Audio Space...that takes me back. They came out to Detroit to show their line at a SMAC meet in Belleville. I got to talking with their chief designer and made him a loan of the first pair of S265Q output TX's I had made. Have not seen them since. Just wrote them another letter, hopefully they will turn up something...I would like to see them again... :) Their stuff had a thoroughly over-the-top flavour. 300B linestage got my attention... :)
cheers,
Douglas
 
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