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damping EMIM'S?

siramazing

AK Member
I have read somewhere that it is possible to damp the EMIM's (RS-1b's), and when I spoke to Miller Sound when I first got my speakers, he said that they can be damped to minimize vibration of the driver. Does anyone know how to go about this? I am getting a "mettalic" vibration that is frequency related in the upper mid-range. I have played with speaker location and that has not helped. Yes, it could be room related also, but I believe that exploring damping the EMIM's could solve the problem.

Thanks,

Bill
 
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The later emims had felt damping behind them. You could have a split in the actual diaphragm that maybe causing this problem.
 
split in diaphragm?

You may be right, but I would think if there was an actual split it would sound much worse than it does. It's not an actual buzzing, just a metallic edge at certain frequencies. So the felt was glued around the sides of the diaphragm on the back side (the side where the tongues are)?

I guess if I was not as lazy as I am, I could switch a couple of EMIM's from the lower 4 to the mid-range, and see if the problem disappears.

Could this be related----I blow the fuse on the mid-range EMIM on the right speaker much, much more often than I do the one one the left speaker, and it's the right speaker that is displaying this metallic edge.

Bill
 
Bill,
There could be several kinds of 'damping' applicable to the drivers. Damping of the mylar's frame to reduce frame vibrations, damping inside the shell of the main outer frame to reduce cavity resonance, etc. Are you asking about acoustic damping or vibration damping?

Is it just the "metallic edge" you are trying to solve? It sounds like it might be the 3rd driver down from the top, the one that receives the highest workload. I wonder if you have some metal fatigue in the diaphragm traces. Just curious, is there any effect on the metallic edge sound when you adjust the pot (variable resistor) to maximum? It sounds like there might be an excessive amount of current drawn for some reason, so the fuse for that driver is failing often. Have you taken the driver apart and had a close look at the physical separation of the foil traces, just in the off chance that two are not making contact because of previous damage/debris/etc.? Just a thought....

Geoff
 
a short term fix might be using 1/2" felt on the back of the emim. that will not totally seal it, but will create some 'suspension'. a friend with a recording studio sent me in some strips of the 1/2" felt to try on my 4.5's, he has used it on other planars with very good results.
 
damping the diaphraghm

Bill,
." Are you asking about acoustic damping or vibration damping?"


"is there any effect on the metallic edge sound when you adjust the pot (variable resistor) to maximum?"





" It sounds like there might be an excessive amount of current drawn for some reason, so the fuse for that driver is failing often. Have you taken the driver apart and had a close look at the physical separation of the foil traces, just in the off chance that two are not making contact because of previous damage/debris/etc.? Just a thought...."



Well, I am assuming it's the diaphragm that needs to be damped, so it would by vibration damping.

Are you talking about the passive crossover control that's marked "Hi Frequency"? I have not checked that out.

I think that the easiest thing to do to start with is to move that 3rd. one down to a different spot and put another one in it's place and see what that does.

Bill
 
a short term fix might be using 1/2" felt on the back of the emim. that will not totally seal it, but will create some 'suspension'. a friend with a recording studio sent me in some strips of the 1/2" felt to try on my 4.5's, he has used it on other planars with very good results.
do you mean put the felt on the back of the frame of the diaphragm or the diaphragm itself? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

Bill
 
"It sounds like it might be the 3rd driver down from the top, the one that receives the highest workload. I wonder if you have some metal fatigue in the diaphragm traces. Just curious, is there any effect on the metallic edge sound when you adjust the pot (variable resistor) to maximum? It sounds like there might be an excessive amount of current drawn for some reason, so the fuse for that driver is failing often. Have you taken the driver apart and had a close look at the physical separation of the foil traces, just in the off chance that two are not making contact because of previous damage/debris/etc.? Just a thought...."

Geoff[/QUOTE]

Please excuse my ignorance-would the physical separation of the foil traces cause the excessive amount of current? If so, how do I fix that? I am no mechanic, and if it needs to be repaired, I would send it off to someone who knows what they are doing.

Bill
 
Geof727-
Well, I took out the 3rd driver from the top and exchanged it with the driver at the bottom of the speaker-the problem, if it is truly a problem and not in the source material itself, is not the diaphragm. What is a problem though, is the constant blowing of the fuse on the 3rd. EMIM down. Changing out the driver did not help that. If there is an excessive amount of current going to the driver, what could be causing that? The active crossover? A bad fuse receptacle? I could probably get hold of a different active crossover to see if that fixes the problem, but if it's a bad fuse holder in the speaker, the problem would remain. Remember, it's always in the right speaker. The left speaker will blow that fuse from time to time, but only once for every 10-15 times the right one blows-also, I have 2amp fuses in there, when the manual calls for 2 1/2 amp fuses-trying to save the drivers, of course. Suggestions appreciated.

Bill
 
just curious, is it common practice with that model to put in fuses rated to blow sooner than spec (2 amp instead of 2.5 amp)?

either way it sort of seems like you should take the early blowing of the right channel's mid fuse as an indicator that there is something different about the signal going to that section of the speaker (or to that speaker as a whole, not just that frequency range even).

I don't own that model, but since there's an active crossover then you must be using a different power amp for the emims than the lows and/or highs.

some diagnosis technics I'd try:

so have you tried swapping the channels of that power amp (just use the left channel for the right speaker and vice versa, changing both the inputs into the amp AND the outputs to the speakers, so it's effectively working just the same way (the amp doesn't care which you decide to make the right or left of course). that's one way of seeing if your emims' power amp is the issue.

then of course try swapping the electronic crossover's outputs between the left and right for the emim section. and just reverse the power amp at either the ins or the outs to make up for it (I'm not thinking this through too carefully but off the top of my head I would think this won't affect sound if all's working perfectly). that could show an issue with the electronic crossover for that range.

Unfortunately a final test might be a lot of work - swapping the speaker's passive crossover between each speaker, but that's overkill and there are definitely other things you can do to diagnose it first. however in the name of getting it right... it's definitely something you want to fix... then at least my first two suggestions should help to remove both your power amp and electronic crossover from the equation. Assuming it's a line level (ie: preamp level) crossover, not a speaker-level crossover, in which case you can probably work out the differences in how you'd swap channels for the same set of results (if not, and if you like my concepts, just ask pls).

while I haven't used that setup and don't know if there may be commonly accepted quirks to it that require occasional fuse replacement, there is NO way that any speaker should ever blow a fuse, certainly not with the frequency you're talking about (although I'd never put in a fuse rated lower than spec either, that's just asking for fuses to blow unnecessarily I would think, and unless you're aware of a problem with your speaker that will kill it with rated power input, I don't really see where it will help protect your speaker as long as it's operating properly). I've never blown a speaker fuse in my entire life, including with pro audio in live sound and in recording studios (and of course in my home). and yes, I play very loud sometimes (although I try not to clip anything ever).

cheers,
Don
 
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How about this for an experiment:
Reverse the Right and Left speaker cables. Feed your left speaker with the right speaker cables, and vice versa. See if the fuse anomoly is still located to the Right speaker, or if things change.

We can try basic process of elimination here, until an expert needs to come out, look at them, dig into them, measure parts, etc.

The reason I asked about the physical separation of the diaphragm traces is to eliminate the posibility that a piece of debris was resting inside the driver and either interfering with the movement of the diaphragm, or making contact across two trace lines and possibly causing a lowered resistance (or near short), leading to higher current flow to that one and shorter fuse life. Sounds like that's not it, though.

Just curious, what kind of amplification are you using for these (brand, model, watt rating, continuous and instantaneous output current rating) on all 4 towers? Also, do the EMIT fuses over blow?

G~
 
Duh--I thought about switching amps, but since they are blinking heavy, did not seriously think about it-It never occurred to me to just switch the cables!! I will start experimenting with that and see what happens.

The reason I have chosen to use 2 amp instead of the recommended 2 1/2 is to save the driver-I would rather blow a fuse than watch the diaphragm burn itself into oblivion. When the drivers were readily available it was different, but now that they are so hard to get it just seems to make sense.

I will blow the emit fuses once in awhile, but not on a regular basis-not like the upper mid EMIM I am having trouble with. These speakers have been infamous for blowing fuses from the very beginning-it was noted in the original reviews in either Stereophile or Absolute Sound.

Don, remember the fuse is not blowing the whole speaker, just the one EMIM.

Geoff-I am using an Audio Research LS-15 pre-amp, and VTL MB-450-monoblocks on the mid/tweeter towers. Krell KS-250 on the bass towers. The VTL's are rated at 450W into 5 ohms. The only other power spec that is listed in the manual is 1000 W power consumption at full power. I have checked the bias on both the amps in the last 2 weeks just to make sure that is not an issue, and all is well there.
 
OK, now what-it was impractical to switch the speaker cables-they are too short, so I opted for the chain above them, and switched the outputs from the active crossover-the fuse on the left speaker blew, and not the right one. So, it's not the amps or the speaker cables, or the speakers. I thought it might be an interconnect, so I changed the ic that was going to the right side and switched the outputs back, and the right side fuse blew again. So, it's not the ic-It could still be the right output from the crossover, or it could be just that I need to put the 2 1/2 amp fuse back in the right side and hope I don't burn a diaphragm. I do have two extra EMIMs, but I hate to blow one in an experiment.

I could go to Guitar World and buy a cheap crossover and see if that fixes the problem (they have a 30 day no-questions-asked return policy). It's just that the Infinity crossover controls the woofer towers much better than the other crossovers I have tried on it, and I think you give up deep bass and slam when you replace the Infinity crossover. If I try a different crossover and it seems to solve the problem, I could always send the Infinity crossover out and have it looked at.

Further suggestions guys??

Bill
 
more---

OK, I tried upping the fuses to 2 1/2. No difference. Fuses still pop at the same places they did before. I guess I need to try a different crossover, and see if that fixes it-If it does, I will have to consider sending the crossover out for a possible repair. Any other suggestions????


b
 
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