Determining stylus wear

Sticklyman

Sticklyman

Well-Known Member
Greetings all,

So, I just bought an AR XB1 from everybody's favourite ebay. It is coming with a Shure V15 type 3 cartridge that is, according to the seller, in working condition. What I'd like to know is, is there a way for me to determine the condition of the stylus other than asking the seller (totally doable) and using a microscope?

I ask because I don't happen to have a microscope. I am a student and could potentially use a microscope at my university, but it would be some type of regular old sciencey microscope, and I feel that the backlighting would make the stylus difficult to investigate. I also wouldn't know what to look for as far as signs of a worn stylus.

Is there any way of determining condition based on sound during use?

Should I decide to replace the stylus, does anybody have any experience with the Super Analogue Stylus line from JICO? Are they as good as JICO's hype makes them out to be?

Thanks
 
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One of the most common answers to this question is just invest in a new stylus. Since you don't know the owner personally, little less the true shape of the stylus, it would be best just to get a new one. No point putting damage on your vinyl. Unfortunately, I don't have this cart but I'm sure someone who does will reply shortly. Have fun with your new table! :music:
 
I agree with ranf1970. "Working condition" just means it makes sound. The SAS stylus receives regular praise from AK members no matter what the cartridge, and yes, definitely in the V15 III, as well. I had one in my IV and it was dynamite.

It is very difficult to determine wear using a microscope without knowing what to look for. Look at the sticky called "Sparky's Microscope" and you'll find out what's involved in determining wear. Believe me, it's easier to just get a new stylus and keep track of the number of hours on it.
 
Congrats on your turntable purchase, used stylus are always a gamble so you are wise to question the condition. As already suggested, I agree you're better off replacing the used stylus, you can sleep at night and not worry about stylus damage to your LP collection.

I haven't read "Sparky's Microscope" so apologize if this is already covered. You may want to take a look at The Microscopy of Vinyl Recordings here at www.micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0000.htm. Lots of good info and on Page 5 specific info about examining stylus wear.
 
Sometimes, though, you can't just get a new stylus, like for the MA 2002e and 530mp's that I have, they both sound great, so I know they are still in good shape, I just don't know for how long...I used to own the Shure Audio Obstacle Course lp, and it was a great indicator of a worn stylus, as you could really hear the the "S"s breaking up on the sybilis test. I lent it to my brother, never to see it again. So it really would be nice if there was a common piece of music that did the same thing..I keep my eyes out for MAs audio torture record, for the same thing.
 
Perry/All, Somebody recently in another forum, made some comments about "test records" to me, which I'll explain below. This was something that hadn't initially came to my mind, but can hold validity, and does make sense. It is food for thought.....

Should a test record be damaged, either by a totally crapped out, worn Stylus, or one that was set up poorly, with incorrect VTA, VTF, Alignment, etc, the Stylus in any of these cases could've damaged the test record, and in these instances, the test record would then be a flawed indicator of a Stylus Wear problem.

I tend to agree with Howard (hakaplan), and will go further to say, that even if one placed a pair of identical Stylus' set up on a legit Shure Stylus Microscope, and told us to take a peek, then making the determination of deciding which is acceptable, and which isn't, would be a crap shoot at best.

The best judge will always be the ear, and of course one doesn't hopefully wish to find this out, by testing on some rare, irreplaceable, valuable records, let's just for say, your revered Blue Note LPs.

At about 35-36 years of age, the Shure V-15 III, and yours in particular, may have gone through a number of Stylus changeouts over the years, (Due to whatever reasons, breakage, etc) And therefore, one shouldn't automatically assume that the current Stylus is an authentic Shure model on board, such as the VN-35E, VN-35HE, or VN-35MR Stylus. it may very well be one of those cheapie, garbage replacements, and in those instances, you will not hear what the V-15 III is truly capable of.

IMO, the Jico SAS exceeds-surpasses anyything Shure ever made for this Cartridge, with a special nude Micro Line/Shibata type Stylus profile, and bonded to a sleeved Boron Cantilever on board to boot.

With this Stylus, one has to be a bit more critical-careful with proper Cartridge set up, and as well, being a bit more careful not to throw this Cartridge around on an LP, as the Boron Cantilever will be much more delicate-prone to damage than any previous/other offerings. I myself would also stay away from liquid Stylus cleaners with this model, just stick with using the Mr Clean Magic Eraser instead. A simple dunk, by cueing into a small "dry" cube of the white ME before each LP side will maintain the Stylus without need for any other product.

I would say, first determine that the Cartridge does indeed appear to work correctly, then give LP Gear a ring for a new Jico SAS Stylus. The SAS Stylus is worth the money.
Mark
 
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hakaplan said:
It is very difficult to determine wear using a microscope without knowing what to look for. Look at the sticky called "Sparky's Microscope" and you'll find out what's involved in determining wear. Believe me, it's easier to just get a new stylus and keep track of the number of hours on it.
Click to expand...

Hi hakaplan,
While I agree that getting a new stylus is probably best in the OP's case, I must disagree with your claim that determining stylus wear using a good microscope is difficult or some sort of "Black Art". It's actually very easy. You make a very definitive statement seemingly based on much personal experience yet I'll bet you have never actually tried a good stylus microscope such as the one that is described in my sticky "Sparkys Fabulous DIY Stylus Microscope. You should. I think you would change your mind and also change your advice.

Just look for wear facets. If you see any facets you should replace the stylus. What may have confused you are the example pictures shown in the cited thread. In almost all cases, the styli are very badly worn as indicated by the large wear facets. I underline that ANY evidence of facets is an indicator the stylus should be replaced as quickly as possible. This is easily seen through the microscope. What could be easier? What could be better for your records?

I must also add that keeping track of operating hours is not the best way to keep track of wear. It's way too too easy to loose count. Rather, using our ears is the best way. Very small wear facets can be heard. I do agree that this takes a bit of experience but it is well worth learning. Using our ears in conjuction with the microscope for confirmation is very powerful and is the best means we have for detecting stylus wear.

Sparky
 
That was why I mentioned a common piece of music, one easily obtained for not a lot of money. Your ears can hear the cymbal crashes or vocal "S" turn to sandpaper. It would be a very worn stylus indeed that could damage vinyl in one playing. Mark, if you think the Jico SAS stylus is delicate, you should see the MA 530 mp. Also boron and easily twice as long, but less overall moving mass because it's ceramic, not MM. Unfortunately, I bet, I've only ever replace 2 styli at MOST because they were worn. I've broken maybe 10 in my life. Sh1t happens. So even a re-tip is not always an option. If I ever find myself going near White Rock NM, I'm bringing all my styli with me!
 
Perryinva, I thought TOTL Micro Acoustics cartridge cantilevers were made of Beryllium, a least that's what it says in the paperwork with my 3002. I understand Beryllium is supposed to taste sweet but don't taste it because it's poisonous and you might never make it to White Rock NM to have Sparky check your styli! :sigh:
 
The very first "good" cartridge I ever bought, (new of course), was the Shure V-15 Type III, and I still have that baby, and it currently sits in its box, with Jico SAS attached.

Sad, I know, that it isnt getting use, but there's currently better onboard my table, the ZYX Airy 3X MC Cartridge. At least it should be better, for how the ZYX lightened my pocketbook!:cry:

The Stylus quality will play an important part for the V-15.and I can remember as well, years back, thinking "hey, if 1.5g VTF is good, maybe 1.0g is even better?', but I was wrong. Tracking went to hell, and you virtually couldn't even walk through the room, without the Stylus going haywire in a track. Mark.
 
I also think you should get a new stylus as soon as funds permit as the old one may be doing damage as you spin ? And just another bit of advice , go for the best one available or be consumed by the " I should have spent the extra $30 and been satisfied " I went for a cheaper stylus for my V and now think about why I didn't go the extra bucks while I was at it as I now find myself wondering how good my cart would sound with the best stylus . the difference between the totl Jilco and the one I bought was maybe $30-40 . the doubt is worth more than that :scratch2:
Congrats on your score
 
With my own eye, (using a microscope, mind you) I've seen pretty huge wear spots on styli that didn't sound bad. I've come to believe that by the time you hear problems you're hundreds of hours of play too late. No way am I risking my records anymore.

The only reliable way to determine stylus wear is by looking at it thru a stylus microscope in the ways prescribed by the pros. This isn't hard to do. Check the "sparky's" stylus microscope thread. I built one and it is fantastic -- incredibly useful tool.

Otherwise, save your records and buy a new stylus. And track the hours it plays. (There are threads on DIY hour meters).

Michael
 
You're right, beryllium on the 2002, 3002 and 530 and up, I read Boron, saw the B, and jumped the thought process. Still an exotic, delicate cantilever. I have 3 TTs I run, for fun, and yes, there are plenty of better MC carts over the MM V15, from what I've read, and indeed, I use a HOMC BA vandenHul on the D8, but I'm very comfortable with the sounds from the MAs and V15, and found that pretty much every cart I've heard has it's own sound. Since none of my gear has a MC amp, tho, I just stick with what I'm happy with. I think my TTs just aren't great MC mates, and the higher VTFs always bother me, LOL.
 
shimniok said:
Otherwise, save your records and buy a new stylus. And track the hours it plays. (There are threads on DIY hour meters).

Michael
Click to expand...

Do you think you could lend a hand finding one of these mysterious threads about a DIY hour meter? I've struck out completely.
 
Hi Folks,
I feel that I need to write again about determining the state of ones analog system. I said above that the best way to determine stylus wear is to use our ears. This is true, always. But, there are caviats.

Your goal with an analog system is, first and formost, a system that NEVER, NEVER mistracks no matter what the situation. Anyone on this site with a first rate turntable, arm, and cartridge, properly installed and adjusted, will confirm this. Until you get to this point, your system has fundamental problems that need to be fixed. Once you do reach this point, your ears will, indeed, be the best measure of stylus wear. Otherwise, you will be hearing the problems that exist in your equipment and/or setup.

Remember, stylus wear distortion can have other causes. If a record has been damaged by someone who played the record with a worn out stylus, it will have damaged grooves. This is very common with used records. Your good stylus will faithfully reproduce the damage and it will sound just as though YOUR stylus is worn out. This is another area where a stylus microscope can help sort out the problem.

One of the major advantages of a stylus microscope is to determine if mistracking is caused by stylus wear or setup. If you see wear facets on the microscope you can be pretty sure that the distortion you are hearing is caused by a worn stylus. However, if you do not see wear facets, you are dealing with a setup or equipment problem.

The better your overall system is the more sensitive it is to tracking distortion and the earlier, therefore, you will hear stylus wear distortion. My system is very high resolution and detects wear distortion very early. Other, less resolving systems, such as vinatage systems, will require more wear before distortion becomes obvious.

Shimniok, I must take issue with your statement about the amount of distorion produced by most of the styli shown in your pic's in the sticky "Sparkys Fabulous DIY Stylus Microscope" thread. The majority of those styli in your pics would unlistenable on a competent system. Furthermore, they would act like a cutting tool on the record grooves. If I were you, I would never encourage use of such worn styli. It does no one any good and misrepresents the advantages of the microscope. Most of those styli are trash and I am not picking nits! Throw them as far as you can!

Sparky
 
Karma16 said:
Shimniok, I must take issue with your statement about the amount of distorion produced by most of the styli shown in your pic's in the sticky "Sparkys Fabulous DIY Stylus Microscope" thread. The majority of those styli in your pics would unlistenable on a competent system. Furthermore, they would act like a cutting tool on the record grooves. If I were you, I would never encourage use of such worn styli. It does no one any good and misrepresents the advantages of the microscope. Most of those styli are trash and I am not picking nits! Throw them as far as you can!
Click to expand...

Certainly you have far more experience than I both at inspecting and listening so I defer to your better judgement and urge others to do so as well. The other source of info that I would hope would be trustworthy would be the SEK-2 manual.

Michael
 
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