Do speakers age through time..to sound better?

budkor

Member
Hi All

Tonight my question for you is this.

If you played guitars, then you know what I am meaning. Fenders, Martins or Gibsons made in the 1950s - 1960s cost absolute fortune. Of course, main reason might be the rarity and collective value, but they say that guitars made during this periods do sound fantastic due to wood aging and capacitor and magnet aging process which happened for 40 - 50 years. What actually happens with these parts, and whether they are true or not can be perhaps amount of a few months interesting discussion topic.

But could similar things happen with speakers - speakers made in the 50, 60, 70s - could they have gone through some sort of aging process in magnets, coils, cones and wood enclosures to give very musical sound quality - so much so they could be regarded better than modern counter parts?

I read a few discussions that caps in the vintage speakers are better getting replaced, so they are looked upon decaying rather than aging.

I am not sure, but when I think about these things, mind boggles as they say, but I have certainly heard some awesome sounding stock vintage speakers.

cheers
 
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Something made today could be made much better than it was in the 50's, 60's & 70's.

There have been improvements in measuring and manufacturing etc.

However something made today costs much much more than buying something made in those times.

So if you are into bargain basement shopping you can get some "good sounding" totl vintage stuff from yesteryear.

They may not compare to totl stuff from today but are hard to beat when price is considered.
 
Hi All
If you played guitars, then you know what I am meaning. Fenders, Martins or Gibsons made in the 1950s - 1960s cost absolute fortune. Of course, main reason might be the rarity and collective value, but they say that guitars made during this periods do sound fantastic due to wood aging and capacitor and magnet aging process which happened for 40 - 50 years. What actually happens with these parts, and whether they are true or not can be perhaps amount of a few months interesting discussion topic.

But could similar things happen with speakers - speakers made in the 50, 60, 70s - could they have gone through some sort of aging process in magnets, coils, cones and wood enclosures to give very musical sound quality - so much so they could be regarded better than modern counter parts?

My brother was a 60's and 70's guitar player. He says his old gear is highly valued today because the new ones are cheaply made junk, and most everything he does to maintain them is something intended to stave off the effects of age.

I think it is conceivable that the wood parts of a speaker system, like the body of a violin or guitar, might undergo changes with age that change their sound, but that the chances that those changes would be bad are just as good, if not better than, the chances that they would be good.

The changes that electronics undergo with age and use are pretty much universally bad for their sound.

If vintage speakers sound better to you than new ones, the reason is almost certain to be changes in the design or manufacturing methods used.
 
After the initial break in period, it is all down hill from there. They can maintain a near top level of performance for 10 to 20 years or more, but they definitely wont improve.
 
Something made today could be made much better than it was in the 50's, 60's & 70's.

There have been improvements in measuring and manufacturing etc.

However something made today costs much much more than buying something made in those times.

So if you are into bargain basement shopping you can get some "good sounding" totl vintage stuff from yesteryear.

They may not compare to totl stuff from today but are hard to beat when price is considered.

:bs:
 
HypnoToad has got the right idea. Things have changed a lot. But you can always pay a premium.

About the speakers aging: I once read one man's opinion on the internet about this exact thing. He said that most speaker owners will never live long enough to hear the intended sound of their speakers. Some actually feel this way; That the burn-in process can take years and years to complete.

Me, I remain optimistic and feel that once the surrounds and diaphragms loosen up (say, a few months of normal usage) the speaker will sound damn good for around 10 years and then degrade. The crossover's degradation is an often unnoticed but very real phenomenon that can kill the speaker's sound IMO.
 
HypnoToad has got the right idea. Things have changed a lot. But you can always pay a premium.

About the speakers aging: I once read one man's opinion on the internet about this exact thing. He said that most speaker owners will never live long enough to hear the intended sound of their speakers. Some actually feel this way; That the burn-in process can take years and years to complete.

Me, I remain optimistic and feel that once the surrounds and diaphragms loosen up (say, a few months of normal usage) the speaker will sound damn good for around 10 years and then degrade. The crossover's degradation is an often unnoticed but very real phenomenon that can kill the speaker's sound IMO.

Agreed. Once I get some spare time (AKA Thanksgiving break), I'm gonna give recapping my Advents and possibly AR4x's a go....they're definitely broken in, and sound great, but those 40 year old caps are definitely due for a replacement.
 
Yep, recapping speakers has a bigger improvement than recapping gear in a lot of instances.

Plus, its much easier to work inside of a speaker cabinet than inside a preamp.
 
It is the owner who is aging and decaying, especially in the auditory sense. Humans, like speakers, occasionally need crossover upgrades and re-foaming, or sometimes complete re-coning.
 
It is the owner who is aging and decaying, especially in the auditory sense. Humans, like speakers, occasionally need crossover upgrades and re-foaming, or sometimes complete re-coning.
Sadly true and generally much more expensive than working on the human's audio gear. In addition the results of the work are considerably less certain to be successful......
 
The only musical devices I've known to clearly improve with age and long-term use are the members of the bowed-string family (ie. violin etc.). That is still subject to condition, of course. Even guitars have a life span after which they lose some of their vigour (according to several guitarists I work with). Apart from that the majority of music-producing or reproducing devices head downhill over time, though some can be brought back to original qualities (or better) through first-rate restoration.
 
About the speakers aging: I once read one man's opinion on the internet about this exact thing. He said that most speaker owners will never live long enough to hear the intended sound of their speakers. Some actually feel this way; That the burn-in process can take years and years to complete.
The designer never heard it either, then.

Makes ZERO sense; TOTAL BS.... :yes:
 
Burn In

The designer never heard it either, then.

Makes ZERO sense; TOTAL BS.... :yes:

Some members of another audio site, "C.P.", adhere to the idea that newly refirbished crossovers networks and/or tweeters need a "burn in" time of up to 100 hours before their beloved speakers sound right.:scratch2:
 
Some members of another audio site, "C.P.", adhere to the idea that newly refirbished crossovers networks and/or tweeters need a "burn in" time of up to 100 hours before their beloved speakers sound right.:scratch2:
That ain't "Years and years."

What "burns in" is the listener, more typically. :yes:

"I don't hear any difference with these new interconnects you sold me for big bucks."

"You've gotta burn them in for at LEAST 100 hours or more...." ;)
 
Thanks for the strong words.

By your reasoning, why should we try any tweak? Lets write it off immediately, since its total BS. That ain't audio, my friend. :no:

I'm done.
 
Clearly, things change over time. Even in the dry, still environment of an Egyptian tomb, change occurs, albeit slowly.

With speakers, wood dries, becomes stiffer and probably more brittle and certainly more resonant. Glues and varnishes dry and perhaps contracts, crack and migrate a little, changing their resonance and the characteristic way that vibrations pass through them. Wires and other metals --baskets, magnets, and more notoriously, the contact surfaces in tone control L-pads and pots-- may oxidize on the outside. Capacitors, we all know (especially electrolytics) change and dry out, virtually always for the worst. Even resistors and other discrete components change, albeit more slowly. Even the paper from which old driver cones were made, dries out.

Each of these changes is bound to have some effect, small or large, on the final sound.

MOST of these changes are negative. Dried-out cases with shrunken glue may become more porous to air, and need re-sealing. Their lesser weight and greater resonance, due to loss of moisture, makes them less resistant to movement. While that is a good thing in a violin, it usually isn't in a speaker -- UNLESS the particular resonance involved is adding a desired "warmth" or "tone" to the speaker. Many speakers are well-liked because of their particular sonic characteristics, which may not be accuracy so much as pleasant-sounding distortions and harmonics. If the effects of drying enhance these pleasant sonics, then the aging process may make the speaker sound better.

However, this is very much likely to be the exception, and NOT the rule.

Similarly, it is possible that a dried-out driver cone may be stiffer, more rigid than one with higher moisture content (think of green, flexible wood versus old, dried boards), which might actually make the cone more accurate. However, it is just as likely that the fibers may be weakened by the effects of age, breakdown from atmospheric pollutants, etc... and the result may be sonic degradation.

Almost everything else I mentioned above, and everything else I can think of, is likely to be a negative factor. We want speaker cases to be heavy and inert. Drying out -- or even the reverse, the "dry rot" of too much moisture in damp climates-- works against that.

Surrounds are notorious for going bad over time: cloth ones need re-sealing, and foam ones crumble. No improvement there.

Oxidized wires suffer from negative "skin effect" and the sound is degraded. This applies both to the internal wires going to/from the crossover and drivers, and to the wires inside the voice coils.

Magnets won't become stronger, unless deliberately subjected to a magnetizing process, something which just won't happen when they are mounted inside of a speaker! On the contrary, a magnet may well very slowly lose it's magnetic strength over time, a natural tendency towards entropy that exists in them. This may or may not be noticeable within a human lifetime, but it may be very noticeable after relatively few years, depending on the type of magnet and the conditions it is stored under.

Most of what we do to "restore" speakers is aimed at bringing them back to a state that is closer to new. We oil the cabinets, put in new capacitors and wires, re-seal or replace the surrounds, clean or replace (upgrade) the connectors. I think this illustrates something basic: for the most part, time is NOT friendly to speaker performance!

Eventually, all of these speakers will simply die. I can't imagine a 1,000 year old paper cone being driven hard, without starting to fall apart. Our hope is that, with a little care and occasional restoration, they can still be kept singing for many years to come, before they finally give up the ghost. One also hopes that the alternatives that will then be available, will be at least as good, sonically. At the high end, I'm optimistic they will be. As long as people have ears and emotions, there will be some demand for good-sounding music, and the engineering knowledge will not entirely disappear. Some specific things, though (Beryllium midrange drivers, for example) may disappear for long periods; such things should be guarded and preserved zealously, as their like may never be seen again in our (or our children's) lifetimes [In this example, JM Labs tweeters notwithstanding.]

All that said, a TOTL vintage speaker, nicely restored, will give much better sound than all but a very expensive (close to equally TOTL) speaker today, so even if its sound may not be quite 100 percent of the sound it had when new, it still represents outstanding value-for-money.

But when you are going back to the 1960s and earlier, many people are taking out the old drivers and putting them into newer, updated cabinets. Some of the old cabinets still sound great, but we understand speaker cabinet design and construction much better now than we did then, and have excellent materials available; the sound that often results from re-housing those drivers is proof of that.
 
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