Dual 1216 versus Technics SL-D303

A

Adriel R.

Member
This is my first post (long time lurker) so if you don't mind, attempt a brief introduction.


I started listening to LPs when about nine or ten years old, found my bio "mother's" few she had, just before LPs were quit being made (now you know my approximate age ;)). I don't know what got me to put a LP on a turntable, neither of my folks played them, nor can I put into words why I love listening to them, sure y'all understand the latter. In my mid teens I started finding LPs at library sales, then life got busy and stopped collecting.


I have a lot of hobbies, so not going to go crazy collecting equipment, rather, I am trying to build a nice system on a budget that provide years of enjoyment and the occasional change in cartridge. Somehow settled on Technics, which seems to either be loved or hated. I have a SU-Z600 amplifier, M234X cassette deck (love the DBX noise suppression), and a ST-S707 receiver (stellar FM reception, have not gotten an AM antenna, though bet be also just as amazing). I eventually will add a compact disk player, though right now looking to add a turntable.

I am looking for a nice one that serve me well for many years listening to Dad's, may he rest in peace, vintage LPs and mine I have collected in the past. Dad collected mostly classical music and some American, Austrian, and German folk music. He took really great care of his LPs judging by the condition. My collection is mostly pre 1980 rock and roll, few folk LPs, and because bought used, most are not in the best shape, though never I buy heavy scratched.

Because of my lovely experience with my Technics and based on this forums information, looked for a Technics turntable with a removable mount (a lot of those available are P mounts) and see the SL-D303 as one of the recommended models.

However, an audiophile friend (listens to a lot of jazz on 78s, has room full of shellacks) recommended a Dual 1216.

The Dual 1216 has a rumble of 10dB versus Technics SL-D303 at 78dB, is this a drastic difference in the audio?

What be y'alls preference, the Dual or the Technics?

Thanks in advance.
 
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A friend of mine has the 303 table too. Its much quieter than a Dual and has much less wow and flutter. The arm is the issue, however. Getting the cartridge mounted properly can be a very difficult process and can really hamper the capability of any cartridge to perform at its best. I would be looking else where.
 
twiiii said:
A friend of mine has the 303 table too. Its much quieter than a Dual and has much less wow and flutter. The arm is the issue, however. Getting the cartridge mounted properly can be a very difficult process and can really hamper the capability of any cartridge to perform at its best. I would be looking else where.
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Thank you so much for your help, it is appreciated.

I have rebuilt a Volkswagen air cooled engine, balanced the rods and pistons to within a half gram of each other (factory is 10 grams), because I was finding it fun; I love mathematics (the other day I was happy to have an opportunity to do trigonometry). I have worked on vehicles since High School auto shop class. I also have worked in a machine shop. Oh and I draft my own patterns as gives an opportunity to do mathematics. So how could adjusting the arm once in a great while present such an insurmountable task in comparison?

Why is mounting the cartridge difficult?

IIRC, the needle to back measurement is 54mm, though only seen the specification once. The poster also recommended using a micrometer, I have two, a German made before World War One passed down in the family and a digital gauge. Furthermore, I still have the gram scale. I have in my Amazon cart the protractor tool. Anything else needed?
 
According to the site Dual Reference the 1216 rumble numbers are
Rumble:
Unweighted: -35dB
Weighted: -55dB
I think it is the second figure that compares to the Technics figure.

So yes, the dual will have more background noise compaired to the Technics. But is it a worse overall listening experience? Hard to tell. There are more factors than rumble that defines a listening experience.
I have no personal experience with either of the decks but I like old idler drives like the dual is. They seem have a lot of musicality built into them. And they look good too :).

Then there's the other question about buying old vintage gears. The Dual and Technics both have their pros and cons in this area.

The Dual has tricky mechanics but is sturdy and will usually be fixable with some elbow grease and then new grease.

The Technics will run trouble free until it doesn't, but then it can take some serious electronic skills to fix ageing electronic components.

Just try to evaluate that the TT runs as it should before purchase, which ever you choose and you should be fine.
 
T68 said:
According to the site Dual Reference the 1216 rumble numbers are
Rumble:
Unweighted: -35dB
Weighted: -55dB
I think it is the second figure that compares to the Technics figure.

So yes, the dual will have more background noise compaired to the Technics. But is it a worse overall listening experience? Hard to tell. There are more factors than rumble that defines a listening experience.
I have no personal experience with either of the decks but I like old idler drives like the dual is. They seem have a lot of musicality built into them. And they look good too :).

Then there's the other question about buying old vintage gears. The Dual and Technics both have their pros and cons in this area.

The Dual has tricky mechanics but is sturdy and will usually be fixable with some elbow grease and then new grease.

The Technics will run trouble free until it doesn't, but then it can take some serious electronic skills to fix ageing electronic components.

Just try to evaluate that the TT runs as it should before purchase, which ever you choose and you should be fine.
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What is the difference in the flutter and wow?

I am not aware of any shops here selling vintage equipment, buy off of eBay and only got scammed once, got my money back in full.

All my equipment is solid state, so accept something might happen which is not repairable. Though, a very good point about mechanical almost always repairable. Are the rubber idler wheels available new?
 
Adriel R. said:
What is the difference in the flutter and wow?

I am not aware of any shops here selling vintage equipment, buy off of eBay and only got scammed once, got my money back in full.

All my equipment is solid state, so accept something might happen which is not repairable. Though, a very good point about mechanical almost always repairable. Are the rubber idler wheels available new?
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Yes, you can get new idler wheels now from a Canadian company. Here's a link (no affiliation). I did just order a couple for my tables. :)

https://audiovault.ca/product/dual-10-12-series-idler-wheel/
 
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OP, hope you are enjoying the audio hobby. Started at age 11. Have owned many turntables. While I like Technics, I am married to Duals. I am not a fan of the electronics in most turntables including later Duals. Started learning the mechanics with a 1218 I got off Eprey. While it I did get it fixed I learned the basics of how a Dual operates. Al my Duals are older with no electronics. I have 1010S,1019s,1219s plus a PE made by Dual. Serviced several 1216s. While not a higher end model they sounded pretty good. You might want to get the service manuals from Vinylengine. Sigh up and free. At this point in my life I have all the receivers,speakers, etc I need. Started buying the little things. I like Shure carts. Have duplicate Shure M55s, M91EDs, and V15 type 3s. Most are mounted on new BEST brand sleds. Old sleds loose channels and I replace with new ones. Learn about your 1216. Vintage Duals show up time to time. Was not planning on getting a Dual built PE table. Showed up on Eprey. Never seen one. Bought for $60. You just never know. Cleaned up, got extra Shure cart with a new BEST sled. There are always chances to up grade. Good luck and welcome. Pic of orphan PE

Eric
 
A 303 is either minus 72 0r 78. more likely -72. I know its a bit quieter than than my TD 125 which measures around -64 to -66db after a new belt is broken in. Because the arm is designed for a very shallow cartridge and the head shell is never parallel with the platter with most cartridges and getting the Zenith set up is a real pain and very difficult to do. . The over hang can be an issue, too, with some cartridges. It would be a lot easier if the elevation of the arm could be elevated as needed and the head shell twisted. Then you have to use Technics choice for the cartridge alignment which not be the ideal choice with more advanced stylus shapes that been perfected since the 303 was designed.
 
twiiii said:
A 303 is either minus 72 0r 78. more likely -72. I know its a bit quieter than than my TD 125 which measures around -64 to -66db after a new belt is broken in. Because the arm is designed for a very shallow cartridge and the head shell is never parallel with the platter with most cartridges and getting the Zenith set up is a real pain and very difficult to do. . The over hang can be an issue, too, with some cartridges. It would be a lot easier if the elevation of the arm could be elevated as needed and the head shell twisted. Then you have to use Technics choice for the cartridge alignment which not be the ideal choice with more advanced stylus shapes that been perfected since the 303 was designed.
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78 if reading this right: https://vintagetechnics.audio/turntables.php#directdrive.

Okay, so which Technics direct drive is better than the D303 and uses a standard cartridge?

Zenith?

What shapes came out afterwards?

I think one of the cartridges recommended was the Denon DL-110, though I am of course all ears. Nothing over say about $300USD, I am not yet able or willing (including not sure make any difference with vintage speakers (can't afford to pay over $1,000 for a nice pair)).
 
twiiii said:
A 303 is either minus 72 0r 78. more likely -72. I know its a bit quieter than than my TD 125 which measures around -64 to -66db after a new belt is broken in. Because the arm is designed for a very shallow cartridge and the head shell is never parallel with the platter with most cartridges and getting the Zenith set up is a real pain and very difficult to do. . The over hang can be an issue, too, with some cartridges. It would be a lot easier if the elevation of the arm could be elevated as needed and the head shell twisted. Then you have to use Technics choice for the cartridge alignment which not be the ideal choice with more advanced stylus shapes that been perfected since the 303 was designed.
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@C Hart, here is the word.
 
Bill Ashton said:
I am sure our brother meant "azimuth," but some spell-check nastiness changed the word ;)
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Sure have been nice instead of intentionally ignoring my requests for information to explain why adjusting a Technics turntable is insurmountable except by a few experts (apparently only they know the source for the information and sworn to secrecy) and the other is a spelling mistake. Oh well, lesson learned not to be so trusting.
 
The Dual 1015 I bought new in 1968 is still in my possesion and working splendidly.

More recently I have come to own two other Duals from 1963, another from 1968 and my latest Dual is a 704 from 1978. All in good operational condition. Duals I've owned and sold included several 1200 series, a 510 and a 701. Those too were in good operational condition.

For Japanese direct drive's I had an Aiwa for a good many years until the motor crapped out. I still kept a toe in the Japaese direct drive water by trading six turntables, including the Dual 701, for a Pioneer PL-630. That one does not see much use because it only has two speeds.

Since mainstream Japanese turntables came onto the seen in a major way long after Dual was well established, it might yet take a while yet to show how well they stand the test of time. In my opinion, I'd say the longevity prize goes to Dual. The AC motor and idler drive has proven itself.

But I am not 100% devoted to Duals as I have two Elacs - one from 1963 and the other from 1966 plus a Garrard Zero 100C from the very early 1970's. All of those too have AC motors and idler drives.

Mainstream Japanese turntables just don't speak to me the same way.
 
If you don’t hate the plasticky aesthetic of the Technics, or if you actually like the look of it, go for the Technics. Especially if you aren’t that picky and you aren’t a tinkerer. It will probably be bullet-proof and give you years of excellent performance.
I am an idler fan, but I wouldn’t go for a 1216. I would wait for a 1009, 1019, 1218, 1228, 1219 or 1229. You have to expect to do some servicing of these old changers, and you might even have to invest in things like a new idler wheel, which, while they won’t break the bank, aren’t dirt cheap.
Idlers, and specifically Dual idler tables, have a really captivating wham, bam, thank you ma’am ability to make rhythmic music that is mighty close to the real thing.
If you really want an idler drive that can compete with the big boys, find yourself a Lenco L75. :)
 
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