Dynaco PAS 3 improvements?

tubeampking

Chronic dabbler
I have a PAS 3 that I think is a good performer but it just seems like it could be better. Can't really put it into words but it seems sort of constipated...holding back. Besides new board kits is anyone aware of any improvements for this guy?
 
Register to hide this ad
What work has been done so far?

I recently finished restoring my PAS-3. That included bypassing tone controls, installing a new volume potentiometer, replacing the PCBs with fresh ones and using all new parts, adding DC blocker caps to the line stage to eliminate the DC output (I use an ST-70 so I needed to do this), bypassing the loudness function, new RCAs on the back, replacing the multi-cap and also restoring the filament supply.

Before doing most of this work I found it held back like you said. After though, it's a totally different pre-amp. And, not totally different like it has a different character or tone. To me it still has that same PAS sweetness, but it's much clearer and more defined now. A lot richer, too. Granted I did use some pretty high end parts inside (ALPS Blue Velvet volume pot and also Jensen Copper Foil caps on the line stage), but regardless I really enjoy it. It doesn't sound like it's being held back anymore. I thought for sure this would be the bottleneck in my system based on some of what I read about it, but I don't feel that way anymore.

So, that's why I ask what you've done to it so far and what state it's currently in? That will definitely help explain why it sounds the way it does.
 
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/

http://www.tubenirvana.net/pas3-power-supplies.html

I always felt getting rid of anything that used the slide switch was a big help. cleaning up all the selector contacts and every contact in there. A new linestage board with better caps. And if budget allows replace the volume control with a Goldpoint attenuator.

The true Achilles heel of the PAS was the power supply. Get an upgrade PS board!!!!!! Don't bother doing home tweaks - just get the board.
 
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/

http://www.tubenirvana.net/pas3-power-supplies.html

I always felt getting rid of anything that used the slide switch was a big help. cleaning up all the selector contacts and every contact in there. A new linestage board with better caps. And if budget allows replace the volume control with a Goldpoint attenuator.

The true Achilles heel of the PAS was the power supply. Get an upgrade PS board!!!!!! Don't bother doing home tweaks - just get the board.

By the time you buy the boards and all you may as well get a new preamp. On top of the purchase price..
 
From a posting I previously made on the same subject (slightly edited to remove extraneous material):

I suggest you read George Ronnenkamp's (AK audioregen) work about the PAS at Pacific Audio Regenesis. (I have no connection whatsoever to PAR, other than having read his free material and exchanged a few emails with him about his papers.) I found his work to be an excellent, systematic, and rational engineering analysis (he simulated the phono stage!) of the PAS and a great tutorial on how it works and what can (or should) be changed and, more importantly, what must not be changed. Audio needs more concrete work like this, and less opinion and repetition of mythology.

The three PAS-related analyses I know of are available at www.audioregenesis.com :

He hasn't yet finished the series. :( But I can't complain because it is all free. :) (Ok, I can still complain, but nobody will listen...)

The late Bill Thomas did an excellent series on Dynaco ST-70 and Dynaco PAS rebuilds over at Audio Circle. Here is the PAS one:
I wish he had finished documenting his Dynaco ST-70 rebuild.

Another nice rebuild can be found here:

I purchased a new PAS I/O panel machined from a fiberglass-reinforced, copper-clad glass epoxy board from an AK member who milled it. The advertisement was in BT. (Again, no connection other than as a satisfied customer. I'm not listing him in case he isn't making them.)

That should get you started.
 
And another piece I wrote about noise in the PAS. You didn't mention that here, but it helps to reduce the background noise in a preamplifier.

Hiss can be caused by carbon-composite resistors. They are notorious for that.

Horrible technology, carbon composite: noisy, variable, drifts, poorly ages, and with no mojo whatsoever unless one is building a guitar amp and want variable distortion at the plates. I replace them with precision metal film and rejoice at each "thunk" as another piece of distortion and noise hits the wastebasket bottom. Some people use carbon film which just has noise and poorer tolerance, for fractionally additional cost, too. No reason to swap one poor technology for another.

Hafler experienced this type of resistor noise with the PAS:
An Interview with David Hafler, Part 2: The Dynaco Years” by Charles Kittleson, Vacuum Tube Valley, Issue 16

Just about the time we were ordering parts, I noticed a peculiar kind of noise coming from it when it was turned up all the way. The prototype unit didn't have the noise problem. I tried everything that I could think of for weeks, and tried to pin the problem down. I even had Stewart Hegeman come in from New York to analyze the noise problem. He took a look at it and couldn't find the answer (laughter). I finally resolved the thing by taking the preamp apart, piece-by-piece and interchanged them between my breadboard unit and the pre-production unit. I found that the low-noise resistors were noisier than anybody could have anticipated. They were just no good. It took me all that time to find it because they were consistent. They had the same harsh, rushing, waterfall kind of noise. That delayed shipping by several months at a time when the demand was really high. So when we started shipping, we had back orders for a couple thousand units.

Metal film is the best upgrade for resistors to improve performance.
 
Here's some excellent material for you to chew on. No custom PCBs required: http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Spice_preamp.html

You need to be careful when interpreting the results presented in the Koren PAS modeling article. The model depicting the original circuit contains several errors that result in some overly alarmist results. The phono stage exhibits a greatly elevated low end response peak since it is being operated at 280V instead of the intended 210V along with being incorrectly loaded due to to incomplete modeling. The 47K series resistor on the blend switch as well as the 4.7K resistor at the volume pot tap are missing from the model. In the line stage, the first stage coupling cap is shown as 0.1uF instead of the intended .02uF which results in the low end resonance peak being displayed at the wrong frequency. The peak is also dependent on the position of the tone controls, and differs in the 3X, which is not evident from the results shown.

However, Mr. Koren has displayed professionalism in presenting his actual model, the results of which are easily reproduced in the modeling realm, using the values he presented. This is in contrast to the work of certain others who produce faulty modeled results, and profess it as gospel, but never display the model for scrutiny. In this case, the model errors are quite evident and, when corrected, produce results that agree closely with actual measured PAS performance. I have modeled the PAS extensively and found that, with meticulous attention to detail, the results agree well with laboratory measurements. One thing I, personally, never do is present modeled results as fact without confirming laboratory measurements.
 
Last edited:
The phone stage already has metal films in critical locations, but the line stage can get a lot quieter if you install metal films. IMO, there are a ton of things you can do, but given the basic quality of the controls and such, I wouldn't sink a huge amount of time and effort in one. For the same outlay you could scratch build something better. Maybe clone an SP-3A1 or something.
 
You could go with an mu-follower in the line stage, biased for about 6mA per channel, this should leave enough for the phono stage. Using a 12AU7.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the info and for confirming my suspicions...i.e....the PAS has some limitations that cannot be overcome without major reconfiguration. This is something I do not wish to get involved in. A new/ build would be a better choice.
 
Very interesting.
I have a PAS2(same as 3) stock orig. Installed new PS bd is all. No selenium rect.
and have no complaints with it.
Maybe not very fru-fru and you dont have to use all the "bad" switches.
But all my golden-eard friends say it sounds quite good. and I agree.
So with warts and all my PAS is OK.
Dont know why they got such a bad rep.
Maybe because they are somewhat but ugly but that is what makes them charming.
 
Just out of curiosity, whats the input impedance on the amp you are using it with? They're meant to pair with a 470k, but will go somewhat lower. Get it too low without some further tweaking and it messes with how it operates.
 
Very interesting.
I have a PAS2(same as 3) stock orig. Installed new PS bd is all. No selenium rect.
and have no complaints with it.
Maybe not very fru-fru and you dont have to use all the "bad" switches.
But all my golden-eard friends say it sounds quite good. and I agree.
So with warts and all my PAS is OK.
Dont know why they got such a bad rep.
Maybe because they are somewhat but ugly but that is what makes them charming.
Thanks, that was the basic intent of my post. The "brains" of that PAS is it's power supply and the original is clearly not adequate. The "heart" of it is it's line stage board. Just add a few upgraded quality parts one at a time until you're happy with it.

So basically a good clean up, some new parts and give the brain a wake up call and you're off to the races. Heck I used a PAS for almost five years and I liked the little bugger. And do you really want to know the reason -- I --- sold mine.

Well I'll tell you. I OVER upgraded it to the point of not recognizing it anymore. So take what you want from that.
 
I also tend to favor metal film in general, but in the Hafler interview, he referred to the “low noise” resistors being noisier than he expected. In the rest of the interview, did he explain which resistors he was talking about? I recall the PAS came with a different kind of resistor on the phono board – originally not carbon film. They were some kind of close tolerance resistor – was he talking about certain of those causing noise in the phono circuit? What did he replace the noisy resistors with at the time, I wonder?

I don't know more about the story beyond that interview. What we can conclude is that Hafler found a different supplier. Carbon-composite resistors (CCR) are a very poor technology with significant variation between suppliers, so another supplier could provide less-noisy resistors.

To understand why CCR properties vary, and indeed what that variation is, we must consider how a CCR is made: varying amounts of conductive carbon black are mixed with insulating powdered clay or other ceramic, with a powdered phenolic (the brown material used in old printed-circuit boards) binder to glue it together into a cylindrical form. The ratio of carbon (conductor) to insulator (ceramic) determines the resistance in an inverse relationship; high carbon content creates lower resistance and low carbon content creates high resistance.

The physical construction causes the CCR to act like a rectifier of sorts, must like the early CuO rectifiers and varistors, and it also has frequency-dependent effects much like capacitor reactance. All of this distorts the signal in unpredictable ways.

Again, I like metal film for the reasons you cited. However, when I rebuilt my PAS I retained the original carbon comps on the PCB and I do not recall obtrusive hiss/noisiness, at least not at listening levels with high level sources.

As per the story, Hafler simply found a better supplier. Since he was price driven, he'd likely selected those resistors based on cost. I'm not disrespecting Hafler and his crew here; they had a product to get out the door at a specific price point, and if they missed that target they didn't have a viable product or jobs anymore.

The fact that Hafler improved his CCR supplier to the point he could ship doesn't mean that low-level noise doesn't remain, or that the circuit properly performs with out-of-spec CCRs that drift over time.

Carbon comps are okay for grid stop positions (when you have them) and should not cause a noise issue due to the low current, or so I understand.

Ummm, no, that is just audio mythology which endlessly recirculates. Time to debunk it yet again.

Carbon-composite resistors have terrible properties. Simply awful.

One is the Voltage Coefficient of Resistance (VCR) which causes the resistance to drop with voltage, beginning at about 100 VDC and about 6% to 15% depending on vendor. If the signal amplitude is small or the voltage is constant or low (as it would be for the grid) no beneficial change occurs, just more noise and distortion. Erie did a study which showed a few percent change at about 350 VDC. The effect, however, is quite significant at several kV.

So without a large swing in voltage, and a high-amplitude signal that won't be drowned out by noise, all that happens is the CCR is a poor tolerance resistor.

CCRs are hygroscopic and the absorbed moisture permanently changes the resistance, about 3 to 10% according to the data I've seen. Which means that equipment stored in damp basements may have had the CCR values altered long before it began living in a nice climate-controlled living room.

On top of that, the CCR causes significant harmonic distortion. But since humans like even-ordered harmonics, this is considered to be a "warm" sound. Same thing happens with capacitor-bypassed cathode bias; the even harmonics are seen as an improvement and this is reported as mellowness and fullness.

The only place where the VCR property of the CCR could possibly matter is with high voltage swings, such as with a plate resistor. Claims about mojo for any other use is not true or accurate. The guitar world is particularly vulnerable to these claims, btw.

Switching to my audiophile hat for a moment, I’ve gotten the impression that carbon comps contribute to the classic tube gear lushness/fullness/richness of sound. Metal films still allow lushness while resulting in more of a clinical, clean, distinct quality to the sound. One thing I noticed when I replaced the carbon comps with mil-spec metal films in an old Dynaco solid state amp (original Stereo 80) was that the carbon comps also seemed a bit livelier, while the metal films sounded a bit “slower.” Subjective audiophile dross? Perhaps. But, I have read similar comments from others. In any case, I’d probably tend to favor the metal films in general, but if the original CC resistors are in-tolerance and not causing a significant noise problem, I am not inclined to think it is as much of a priority to change as it would be to, for example, make sure the O.P's power supply is properly functioning.

Yeah, it's called distortion. (Second-order and higher-order even harmonics, to be precise.) Liking distortion doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't (always) mean you have bad taste, and it won't undermine civilization. But it does mean that the signal is altered by the amplifier, somewhat defeating the goal of having an amplifier be a straight wire with gain.

Don't get me wrong: I love distortion in guitar amplifiers. I also don't mind or actually like certain types of distortion in HiFi (and guitar) amplifiers. I often enjoy the sound of analog processing which tinkers with or alters the signal: expanders, compressors, impact and sub-harmonic restoration, intra-aural cancellation, noise filters, etc. But I'm not in denial about what this is or why I like it. Audiophiles need to wake up and start admitting their amplifier with Magikal Mojo distorts in ways they find sonically pleasing. Yes, distorts. Altering a signal distorts it. Hopefully for a more pleasing sound, but it is still distortion.
 
The phone stage already has metal films in critical locations, but the line stage can get a lot quieter if you install metal films. IMO, there are a ton of things you can do, but given the basic quality of the controls and such, I wouldn't sink a huge amount of time and effort in one. For the same outlay you could scratch build something better. Maybe clone an SP-3A1 or something.

It's an straightforward and inexpensive fix to switch to 1% metal-film resistors and 1% film capacitors, replace the bulb with an LED (unloads the transformer), redo the rear panel, use shielded wire (grounded at one end), improve the voltage regulation, and do some other basic modifications that have been elsewhere outlined. A set of replacement boards (identical but modern glass epoxy) is inexpensive.

While this always turns into preference, I find the PAS to be a nice preamplifier and (like many) appreciate the sound when (like any preamplifier of its era) it is cleaned up. I doubt it could be touched for the expense of a basic upgrade.
 
Most of the noisy CC's I've had were also off value. I suspect the moisture aggravates the noise problem.

I'm more of a cabon film guy, but its mostly price driven. I really have no special feelings one way or the other about what flavor of film I use, I just want them reasonably priced and value-stable for a long time so I don't have to fool with it again.
 
Back
Top Bottom