Empire DB-208 belt for 208, 298, 398

[marcmorin]

My Atma-sphere belt is 0.109" in "height." It was the best of all the aftermarket belts I tried. However, it runs a shade slow (0.2%) and couldn't be fine tuned with the screw adjustment. It has a shorter "height" than the original Empire belt.

Full dimensions of my Atma-sphere belt: 37"L x 0.0135" T x 0.109" W.

have you tried talc'ing the belt?

 

[ateal]

The same site also provides this interesting tidbit:

WARNING WARNING WARNING:
Much confusion exists as to the correct size replacement belt for ALL Empire brand turntables. That's because Empire saw fit to build turntables with, in some cases as many as five different chassis under the same model number, thus requiring as many as five different belt lengths. This means it is absolutely impossible to rely on model number alone to source the correct belt. An absolute disaster!

So, the genuine Empire belt labels pictured above are wrong. They should read some not all. You MUST accurately measure your model's belt path with a string, then multiply the result by 0.95 & 0.97 and look for a length match below that is within the range of 3-5% less than your string measurement.

This belt is sometimes found in, but NOT necessarily limited to, the following Equipment:
Any Empire 200, or 300 series turntable.
(Any Empire 2xx, or 3xx series turntable.)
Empire 208
Empire 288
Empire 298
Empire 398A
Empire DB-208 (belt)
SOTA JEWL, SAPPHIRE, STAR, NOVA, COSMOS

Well that helps explain why some people have had total success with the esoteric belts and others have not.

 

[empirelvr]

Well that helps explain why some people have had total success with the esoteric belts and others have not.

No it doesn't because in all the examples of Empire turntables I have seen that is NOT the case.

Example...

I own two 598III's of different vintages, and I had inherited my Uncle's 698 thirty years ago that was falling apart that I kept for parts. ALL three shared the same parts for the motor, T-bar, platter, platter rim, belts, and mat. I mix and matched any number of all these parts and every time, either 598III ran perfectly, even when stuffed with parts from the 698. I did have to rewire things somewhat for the 698 motor to test it in the 598, but only because of the way Empire designed the new arm in the 698, using circuit boards etc for it.

I have also seen numerous examples of the 208/298/398 turntable in the flesh and, again, no changes in motors, or platters. It's especially maddening for the 200 series 'tables because there are so few parts to them to begin with. There just isn't any reason for all the issues we see.

You can even see in eBay pictures of units when they go up for auction that there was little to no change in any of the models parts throughout their lifespan. You see one motor for a 208/298/398 you've seen them all. *bangs head on desk....hard*

 

[dtut]

The same site also provides this interesting tidbit:

WARNING WARNING WARNING:
Much confusion exists as to the correct size replacement belt for ALL Empire brand turntables. That's because Empire saw fit to build turntables with, in some cases as many as five different chassis under the same model number, thus requiring as many as five different belt lengths. This means it is absolutely impossible to rely on model number alone to source the correct belt. An absolute disaster!

So, the genuine Empire belt labels pictured above are wrong. They should read some not all. You MUST accurately measure your model's belt path with a string, then multiply the result by 0.95 & 0.97 and look for a length match below that is within the range of 3-5% less than your string measurement.

This belt is sometimes found in, but NOT necessarily limited to, the following Equipment:
Any Empire 200, or 300 series turntable.
(Any Empire 2xx, or 3xx series turntable.)
Empire 208
Empire 288
Empire 298
Empire 398A
Empire DB-208 (belt)
SOTA JEWL, SAPPHIRE, STAR, NOVA, COSMOS

Is that a PRB FRX 38.8 belt like this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/PRB-FRX38-8...e-298-Empire-398A-Empire-DB-208-/182058003741

Specifications:

• Length, IC (inside circumference): 38.2"
• Length, OC (outside circumference): 38.8"
• C/S cross section height: .250"
• C/S cross section wall width: .035"

Did you strobe it and was it able to achieve perfect speed at all 3 speeds without extreme motor tilt? I tried a PRB FRX 38.8 and it ran fast.

The VOM belt dimensions are listed in the link. I adjusted the speed with a strobe. It was accurate and stable. I don't use speeds other than 33.33 so I didn't check the others. My experience has been that if the length allows a good fit and the thickness - face to face dimension - is close to the original, the width - edge to edge - can be a bit oversize without causing adjustment problems. Going by the specs for the PRB-FRX38-8, I would be concerned because the thickness is about twice the original and the width is about 1/16" over meaning the TT might run fast and be hard to adjust.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Is there a way to measure durometer of beatcombers nos belt?

If we know all the belt properties, perhaps we can have a run of new belts made to the original Empire spec? Not sure what minimum order quantities would be. Might be cost prohibitive unless there is a lot of interest from ak'ers.

 

[beatcomber]

Is there a way to measure durometer of beatcombers nos belt?

If we know all the belt properties, perhaps we can have a run of new belts made to the original Empire spec? Not sure what minimum order quantities would be. Might be cost prohibitive unless there is a lot of interest from ak'ers.

If anyone local to me has the ability to do that, I'd be happy to cooperate. I'm not willing to send it out, however (sorry!).

 

[Willeve146]

I purchased and tried the Esoteric. With the sample I received, I found it to perform similar to the PRB FRX 35.1. Perfect speed could be dialed in at 33 RPM - but only with extreme motor tilt so the belt rode on the upper part of the pulley step. The extreme tilt stresses the motor mount grommets and any footfalls rattle the motor assembly. At 45 RPM, the extreme tilt required for speed accuracy resulted in grinding the base of the pulley to the chassis.

I use the Esoteric with great results and I'm just slightly tilted. The fact that you're all the way over makes me wonder if you were sent the wrong belt. When I had a belt that was too thick I had to cant the spindle way over to get the speed correct.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

I use the Esoteric with great results and I'm just slightly tilted. The fact that you're all the way over makes me wonder if you were sent the wrong belt. When I had a belt that was too thick I had to cant the spindle way over to get the speed correct.

Here's the Esoteric belt and the degree of tilt required to achieve 33.3 rpm on my 208.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

No it doesn't because in all the examples of Empire turntables I have seen that is NOT the case.

Example,,,

I own two 598III's of different vintages, and I had inherited my Uncle's 698 thirty years ago that was falling apart that I kept for parts. ALL three shared the same parts for the motor, T-bar, platter, platter rim, belts, and mat. I mix and matched any number of all these parts and every time, either 598III ran perfectly, even when stuffed with parts from the 698. I did have to rewire things somewhat for the 698 motor to test it in the 598, but only because of the way Empire designed the new arm in the 698, using circuit boards etc for it.

I have also seen numerous examples of the 208/298/398 turntable in the flesh and, again, no changes in motors, or platters. It's especially maddening for the 200 series 'tables because there are so few parts to them to begin with. There just isn't any reason for all the issues we see.

You can even see in eBay pictures of units when they go up for auction that there was little to no change in any of the models parts throughout their lifespan. You see one motor for a 208/298/398 you've seen them all. *bangs head on desk....hard*

Agreed! The first mention of the Empire 208 I see in trade publications is late 1960. The latest I've observed the 398 in trade pubs is 1969. The 208, 298, 398 to my eyes are the same chassis, pulley and the same motor throughout the 8.5 year production run. In the samples I've seen on ebay, I've not observed any appreciable differences that would require a different belt size.

There was only one model of belt: the DB-208 to my knowledge. Who currently owns Empire's intellectual property? Perhaps they still have the exact specs on file of the belt, including durometer. Did Esoteric buy the brand rights since they sell an Empire branded stabilizer clamp?

My guess is the DB-208 durometer specification may be similar to the Atma-sphere belt since that belt comes closest to performing well (no motor tilt).

 

[monkboughtlunch]

By the way, here is evidence that the Empire 208 was available for purchase as early as September 1960 and as late as April 1969.

First ad below is Audio magazine September 1960. Second repro below is from High Fidelity April 1969 turntable roundup.

My theory is that the 208/398/498 were discontinued sometime in 1969 when the 598 was introduced. I believe the 598 may have been introduced in Q4 of 1969 but am not 100% sure.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Does anyone know of an OEM manufacturer who makes custom rubber flat belts for small production quantities?

 

[IMARC4]

John,

Aftermarket belts which claim to be Empire replacements are notorious for not utilizing the original Empire belt specs/dimensions. I have the Esoteric belt and hate it. Check out this thread for details on Empire belts: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/empire-db-208-belt-for-208-298-398.720737/

With everyone seeming to have trouble finding good belts I have been trying to make sure I keep mine running as long as I can before needing to replace it. While checking out the needle I noticed what seems to be the beginning of some initial shredding (far left).

Any thoughts on the benefit / harm of putting a bit of electrical tape at/on that point? Seems like it would reinforce it, but not sure if the momentary increase in thickness will cause any problems as it rolls over the pulley (obviously putting the tape on the outside to minimize any thickness issues). I went ahead and put a bit of tape on there, and am letting it spin for while without a record to break in the tape a little. Will try it out tomorrow but if I am doing any sort of known no-no a heads up would be appreciated.

 

[empirelvr]

With everyone seeming to have trouble finding good belts I have been trying to make sure I keep mine running as long as I can before needing to replace it. While checking out the needle I noticed what seems to be the beginning of some initial shredding (far left).View attachment 765654

Any thoughts on the benefit / harm of putting a bit of electrical tape at/on that point? Seems like it would reinforce it, but not sure if the momentary increase in thickness will cause any problems as it rolls over the pulley (obviously putting the tape on the outside to minimize any thickness issues). I went ahead and put a bit of tape on there, and am letting it spin for while without a record to break in the tape a little. Will try it out tomorrow but if I am doing any sort of known no-no a heads up would be appreciated.

I wouldn't use any sort of tape. Never a good idea. Too stiff, and the adhesive will ooze and cause nothing but trouble.

I would think more along these lines: https://www.amazon.com/6308250-Bison-Liquid-Rubber-Adhesive/dp/B00VVIGTFU

 

[Maraakate]

I had a Esoteric belt from about 8 years ago and it was starting to make the turntable slow to start from a dead stop. Ordered a new belt and it's about half the width/height this time around. Seems to have the same specs as the atmas-phere belt which is no longer produced.

The older Esoteric DB-208 belt was about 5.0mm/0.197in. The new one is about 2.5mm/0.098in. About 0.15% off for me when measured with a phone app which probably isn't as accurate. Works well.

I did contact atmas-phere about the belt and he said that he could order them if you want, but that they were actually SOTA turntable belts. I have no idea which one as Ralph never answered me on that. I emailed SOTA but they weren't sure either. I'll give them measurements to see if they have something.

 

[Maraakate]

Ralph came back to tell me that the belt they were selling was for the SOTA Cosmos model.