Headphones that don't sound like headphones?

[swechsler]

It seems that no matter how wide a soundstage a set of phones presents, to me, it's still not as good as listening to a good set of speakers (not to mention a live performance), in that it always sounds like the music is coming from inside my head. Other than binaural, which is a whole other subject, are there any headphones that get around this? Either with signal processing or a revolutionary design? Is it even possible?

Phones I own include:

Beyerdynamic DT770
Beyerdynamic DT831
Hifiman/Massdrop HE4XX
Monolith M1060C
Sennheiser HD 650
Sony MDR-7506

Most of them are very pleasing, but all exhibit the same in-your-head behavior.

Thoughts?

 

[John James]

Maybe you are missing the whole body response to your tunes.

Phones can sound great but they can't make your whole body experience the sound.

You also lose the room's response to the sound.

I don't know which is more important.

 

[swechsler]

Maybe you are missing the whole body response to your tunes.
Phones can sound great but they can't make your whole body experience the sound.

This is an interesting hypothesis. However, when listening at moderate levels, you generally don't "feel" the sound, at least not consciously.

You also lose the room's response to the sound.

This is probably a larger part. You also lose how the sound interacts with your head and changes subtly as you move.

 

[Chris Brown]

Well it makes sense because many of the ways that the human brain can localize sounds breaks down when using headphones. There are numerous algorithms out there that can attempt to re-create this missing information, producing a more realistic sound-stage when using headphones. The changes to the sound that this causes isn't always appreciated by music listeners however, especially those who fashion themselves as purists. Considering that you have people who talk about how upgrading power cables makes a huge difference, and debate whether you need 24/96 or 24/192 for proper sound, etc; for those people the idea of having their sound processed through a 3D positioning algorithm would probably make their heads explode.

I use an X-Fi Titanium (various models) in most of my computers, and I make extensive use of the CMSS-3D audio algorithm. This can take 7.1 audio information from a movie, game, or multi-channel audio track and downmix it to stereo while retaining significant positioning information. It also works with 2-channel sources adding spacial information to open the soundstage. It's not perfect, but it does generally make it sound more like the sound is in-front of my face as opposed to inside my head. I use it a lot while playing videogames online, and with 2-channel music on a case-by-case basis. Even when I upgraded to an external DAC, I retained the X-Fi soundcard, hooking it to the DAC via SPDIF instead of using the DAC alone via USB, so I could continue to make use of CMSS-3D.

I think the ability to "feel" the sound is indeed one of the huge differences between headphones and speakers, although probably not the cause of why the sound appears to come from inside your head. Among my headphones my Sony MDR-XB700 is the only one that can even come close to reproducing the "feel" of my main stereo. The MDR-XB700 has so much bass that it can actually make my vision blurry during loud deep bass due to the vibration and is one of the few headphones I've had that actually has useful response down to 20Hz. You still don't feel it in your chest like you do with speakers though.

 

[rmsanger]

1 answer: Raal SR1A they describe it as a "True Earfield Monitors"

 

[rmsanger]

There is also another product called the mysphere 3.2 but that is a bit more gimmicky... Give the Raal 3-5 years and allow them to revise their ribbon tech and that will be a true TOTL option.

Many people are integrating a sub with the SR1A as the bass has quite the roll-off as you get below 70hz. Headphones + Rel sub = winning

 

[rmsanger]

i owner the Abyss 1266 Phi TC and it's a near speaker like presentation. The resolution, dynamics, and staging are incredible and it's like a subwoofer sitting on your head. Of course it's heavy so having an Eames chair for listening helps.

 

[swechsler]

Many people are integrating a sub with the SR1A as the bass has quite the roll-off as you get below 70hz. Headphones + Rel sub = winning

Yeah, but if you're using a sub, you might as well go whole hog and use the speakers as well. I use headphones only when using my speakers would disturb others around me. I'm pretty sure running a subwoofer with headphones would disturb others.

 

[JoeESP9]

IMO, having all the sound come from inside the head in a line from one ear to the other does not constitute a soundstage.

IME/O binaural recordings do present a soundstage of sorts when heard through headphones. Unfortunately, there are very few binaural recordings.

With that said, the Smyth Realizer does make headphones have a soundstage. However, it's +$4K price places it out of bounds for me and many others.

 

[fromnowon]

in that it always sounds like the music is coming from inside my head.

That's why I really like open-back phones, specifically I enjoy my "on ear" Grado's. I didn't think I'd like "on ear" but I find them to be super confortable and the sound stage and placement of instruments seems just right to me - maybe you'd find them interesting if you've never tried Grado's; they are different. Maybe being on ear puts the drivers just a little bit further out? Now the SR-80s are the only set of phones I use, and I have some of those on your list too!

Lately though I also have some monitor speakers about 5-6' on either side at ear level and that's been great, "near field".

 

[JoeESP9]

That's why I really like open-back phones, specifically I enjoy my "on ear" Grado's. I didn't think I'd like "on ear" but I find them to be super confortable and the sound stage and placement of instruments seems just right to me - maybe you'd find them interesting if you've never tried Grado's; they are different. Maybe being on ear puts the drivers just a little bit further out? Now the SR-80s are the only set of phones I use, and I have some of those on your list too!

Lately though I also have some monitor speakers about 5-6' on either side at ear level and that's been great, "near field".

I totally agree with @swechsler.

I have a pair of Grado SR-100's. They, like every headphone I've ever heard have no soundstage.

The stock cushions on the Grado's were extremely uncomfortable. I replaced them with some from Ear Zonk. They are now relatively comfortable.

This doesn't mean I don't like headphones. Quite the contrary. I just acknowledge their deficiencies and accept them for what they are and can do.

FWIW: My daily driver phones at home are HiFi Man HE-400's (open back planars). My OTG phones are Monoprice M-300's (open back planar IEM's). Neither produces a soundstage. I gave a buddy a pair of Stax SR34/40 electret ESL's (open back). They don't produce a soundstage either.

 

[rmsanger]

Yeah, but if you're using a sub, you might as well go whole hog and use the speakers as well. I use headphones only when using my speakers would disturb others around me. I'm pretty sure running a subwoofer with headphones would disturb others.

Well there are def other reasons for going SR1A + Sub as you remove the room and the performance is on much higher multiple of speaker.

 

[swechsler]

IMO, having all the sound come from inside the head in a line from one ear to the other does not constitute a soundstage.

True, but it's the only word I could think of. Actually, when I audition headphones, I think in terms of "openness". But you're right, it's not a soundstage by any stretch of the imagination.

With that said, the Smyth Realizer does make headphones have a soundstage. However, it's +$4K price places it out of bounds for me and many others.

ISTM that with there could be some software processing that could run on a PC, Mac or Raspberry Pi to emulate this functionality.

 

[JoeESP9]

I've tried several of those plugins. IMO none of them were worth the effort to download. I've also heard a hardware implementation that used to be available with a headphone amp (Head Fi?). I was underwhelmed with that also. Listening through the Smyth Realizer is the only time I've ever heard a true soundstage from any recording (binaural excluded) through headphones.

What a properly set up Polk SDA system does to a stereo signal is pretty much what the realizer does to any headphones. It also stabilizes the soundstage. If you turn your head to the left the soundstage stays where it was just as if you turned your head while listening through speakers. If headphones were my primary listening source, I'd have a Realizer or be saving to buy one.

 

[Kaveman Karl]

Yeah, but if you're using a sub, you might as well go whole hog and use the speakers as well.

I respectfully disagree. Using a good qualiyu small small sub like, say, the Martin Logan Q400 will pick it up just right at +/-69Hz (if you are using Focal Elear or Clear with SW REF 4 DSP). THe Focals have angled drivers making it seem the sound is coming from left and right front while the sub anchors the fundamentals at center for more realistic imaging, which I think is a better term than "soundstage" when it comes to phones. YMMV with other cans. Tried the same with Sundaras an t'was okay but not so centered while LCDX is a n0-n0 for this. way too wide and yields muddy bass.

 

[ssmith3046]

I've been a headphone listener since the early 70's using a pair of the old green Koss Pros. A year ago a bought a pair of Focal Clear Pro headphones and they're the best sounding ones I've ever owned. The drivers are placed forward a bit in the ear cups and angled back. The present a very open and airy presentation of the music. Definitely the most I've ever paid for headphones but worth it to me.

 

[Kaveman Karl]

I've been a headphone listener since the early 70's using a pair of the old green Koss Pros. A year ago a bought a pair of Focal Clear Pro headphones and they're the best sounding ones I've ever owned. The drivers are placed forward a bit in the ear cups and angled back. The present a very open and airy presentation of the music. Definitely the most I've ever paid for headphones but worth it to me.

Yup, the Clear is imho one of the best headphone on the market, be t it the Pro or the vanilla variety. Stellia and Elear (with a bit of DSP) are also stellar and feature the angled driver. Expensive to say the least The French company never argued they were elitist. They state that "we're just merely aware of what our customers want to hear and what they don't want to hear" This was a veiled allusion at the Senn 1800 which had a few annoying issues, before production was relocated to Ireland. But that hiked the MSRP since by then Ireland had become a wealthy country with the high-wage factor that comes wit it. Technicians over there are not cheap to say the least. Sinc then Senn has built a shield around the cable while most others use new thick sheaths to protect alloys .





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[Coytee]

Maybe you are missing the whole body response to your tunes.

Phones can sound great but they can't make your whole body experience the sound.

You also lose the room's response to the sound.

I don't know which is more important.

Alas....a true story.

Was roughly 1979. I had recently bought a pair of Electrovoice Interface D speakers. Had them mated to a Yamaha CR ?? receiver (100 watts/channel)
Plugged in my AKG headphones as I wanted to crank something up BUT, didn't want to annoy anyone as this system was in my teenager bedroom.

Cranked it up.....pushed it further.... I am A.M.A.Z.E.D at what's going on.... the music sounds fabulous and my whole body can FEEL it....

Moments later, my mother comes barging into my room breating fire & brimstone at me yelling at me to TURNNNNN IT DOWNNNNNNN

I was befuddled, it WAS turned down.

Oops....not so fast. Unlike my prior "all in one" stereo that turned speakers OFF when you plugged headphones in, this one had a switch and as it turns out, my highly sensitive EV's were absolutely POUNDING the room while I was oblivious to that because I couldn't hear it. The music pounding my body should have been my clue but hey, I was a dumbazz teenager, what did I know.

I was genuinely trying to be respectful of Mom & others and turned out to really blow it.

Was fun though!!!

So, that is another way you can listen to your headphones....also turn speakers on for the whole body visceral part that the can's can't offer.

LOVE YA MOM!!!!!

 

[Kaveman Karl]

Oops....not so fast. Unlike my prior "all in one" stereo that turned speakers OFF when you plugged headphones in, this one had a switch and...

I hear ya. This happened to me more times than I can recall back in my teens (70s as well). There were two kinds of receivers: those with a kill switch and those without. Issue was, I seldom remembered which one of the the two audio systems we had at home had the "shush plug" but later I noticed that those devices that had speakers auto shut-off tended to be entry-level units, which made sense to me since those are oftened used by kids whose parents so lured away from the main rig lest they break it.

That being said, a great way to physically experience music tremor with headphones is to use a small sub along with the cans. The trick is to cut them off steeply around 70Hz which is the frequency from which many phones roll off quick. Obvously I don't mean the use of a tiny computer sub, there are now relatively small subs that will dig into the low 30's. There's a caveat however, those subs usually have intricate passive crossovers and that requires a lot more power than a headphone stack can provide. Perfect with vintage though.





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[twiiii]

No matter the headphone type they all produce sound as if it goes from one ear to the other spread across the top of my head. Now the Signet and Stax electrostatics give the best quality and most realism. But the sound will never match speakers in a room. Line arrays give the best similar sound and low distortion with the image being placed in front of me and not across the the top of my skull.

It seems most folks just can't comprehend or will admit how much influence the room they listen in affects the sound from the speakers. Also wearing open air headphones allows the acoustic space to influence the sound though to a lesser extent. IF you really want to hear what your speakers sound like take them out side a 100 ft or so from any reflective surface. Then listen to them 30 ft off the ground and listen. Then you will know what your speakers really sound like. But speakers are designed to be used in rooms with the voicing being a best guess. Why a guess, because no two rooms are alike.