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How do you match the cartridge to the table?

JohnT123

JohnT123

Super Member
I have a Thorens 166 MKII table with the TP16 (two piece) tone arm.

Right now I have the Goldring 2200 cartridge installed and wondering about upgrading. I don't know much about tone arms, but I am learning about cart design and stylus design. I have a moving iron cartridge and the stylus is listed as hyper-elliptical.

I bought the cart based on my experience with AKG moving iron carts, no thought that the table would make a difference. What I didn't understand, and still don't, is how to match a table and a cartridge. I now realise that it's important so I want to understand this relationship before I spend another penny.

The table has been serviced and I have a good pre-amp. Any help is appreciated.
 
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JohnT123 said:
I have a Thorens 166 MKII table with the TP16 (two piece) tone arm.

Right now I have the Goldring 2200 cartridge installed and wondering about upgrading. I don't know much about tone arms, but I am learning about cart design and stylus design. I have a moving iron cartridge and the stylus is listed as hyper-elliptical.

I bought the cart based on my experience with AKG moving iron carts, no thought that the table would make a difference. What I didn't understand, and still don't, is how to match a table and a cartridge. I now realise that it's important so I want to understand this relationship before I spend another penny.

The table has been serviced and I have a good pre-amp. Any help is appreciated.
Click to expand...

You match the compliance of the stylus with the effective mass of the tonearm.
https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency/
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php
 
Indeed, the low-mass arm warrants a cartridge with high-compliance stylus (soft suspension). The Goldring 2200 is medium-compliance (16cu), so perhaps not an ideal match but still qualifies according to the VE resonance calculator. The trouble is that new high-compliance cartridges are rather thin on the ground. My first port of call would be Ortofon, as their Hi-Fi cartridges are fairly high-compliance - perhaps a 2M Bronze or Super OM30, if you want an upgrade from the 2200. The Grado Prestige cartridges would be worth considering, as they favour light arms, except their unshielded design means that they may hum with the turntable. Also, perhaps not quite high-compliance, an Audio Technica from the VM500 series, such as the VM540ML, may work well and be a nice upgrade.
 
This is all good information. With my mis-match of cart and table I'll have to decide if it would be cheaper to buy another table for the cart or another cart for the table. I do enjoy the simplicity of the Thorens but the cost of these items is pretty steep. I tried a 2M Red early on and it was horrible on this table but it was a low end model.

With the current setup should I be changing the tracking force to compensate? I run it at 1.7 gm per the Goldring guidelines. Would raising or lowering that value compensate in any way for the compliance issue?

I need an idiots guide as experimenting is not a financial burden I can handle.:)
 
I agree, I wouldn't get rid of the Thorens for the sake of keeping the Goldring 2200, which has a fairly standard .3x.7 bonded elliptical stylus, so is nothing special in the scheme of things. The offer of a Shure V15II should be taken - I have one on my TD160 and it's a wonderful cartridge, even though my tonearm is the original TP16, which is medium-mass. Just choose your replacement styli carefully.

In the meantime, you could experiment with the tracking force for the Goldring by increasing it up to its 2g maximum.
 
JohnT123 said:
I have a Thorens 166 MKII table with the TP16 (two piece) tone arm.

Right now I have the Goldring 2200 cartridge installed and wondering about upgrading.
Click to expand...
An OM5E might be a good match. It's just a .3 X .7 mil bonded elliptical like your 2200, but the 5 gram weight matches your arm mass really well, and if you opt for the more compliant Stylus 20 (nude elliptical upgrade) at some point, the extra weight in the OM body can be removed to make it just a 2.5 gram cartridge.

Edit: I used an online calculator to get resonance data, and the OM5E with stock stylus and using 1.2 grams for the mounting hardware (the figure used by Goldring; Ortofon's spec sheet didn't say), the resonance frequency comes out to 9.61 Hz. With the weight removed, the higher compliance Stylus 20 would be 9.5 Hz.

I see from past threads that you built your own phono stage. Can you tell us the input capacitance? One thing about the Goldring 2200 is that it's supposed to be best at 100-200 pF total capacitance, and the Thorens wiring has 190 pF all by itself (if your 'table still has the original wiring). The OM bodies are supposed to be good from 200-500 pF.
 
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JohnT123 said:
This is all good information. With my mis-match of cart and table I'll have to decide if it would be cheaper to buy another table for the cart or another cart for the table. I do enjoy the simplicity of the Thorens but the cost of these items is pretty steep. I tried a 2M Red early on and it was horrible on this table but it was a low end model.

With the current setup should I be changing the tracking force to compensate? I run it at 1.7 gm per the Goldring guidelines. Would raising or lowering that value compensate in any way for the compliance issue?

I need an idiots guide as experimenting is not a financial burden I can handle.:)
Click to expand...

Actually it's the tonearm as such and not the turntable that needs to match but now you know and understand the resonance match principle. Even the TP16 MKI tonearm of medium effective mass would not be a proper match for your Goldring 2200 cartridge if it is really of 'LOW' compliance @ 10 Hz: 16 mm/N !!! That's the figure I have find for it.

If ever you can always try to enhance the effective mass of your TP16MKII tonearm by adding some weight on the headshell side and on the counterweight and test them both like that. At least temporary to test your Goldring 2200 on it and hear if that works. Like with coins and 'blu-tak' so it's easily adjustable, instantly removable and it leaves no marks.

I am certain that if ever you manage to gradually through the tonearm effective mass enhacement hear to find the Goldring 'opening up' and perform accordingly you might want to either way tweak the TP16MKII and permanently enhance it's effective mass (these 'old' Thorens evolutive potential is huge IMO) or decide to change for another whole tonearm.

Adding VTF on the Goldring 2200 won't make up for it. Believe me. My DL-102 is of very low (unknown) compliance that I've played first on my light effective mass SME3009 'Improved' tonearm that of which I've gradually enhance the effective mass to finally hear my DL-102 sing. As for other cartridge I can't vouch for the 2M 'Red'. 2M 'Blue' or higher.
 
I read a little about this tonearm mass thing and still don't quite understand it, I have a Pioneer PL518 that's in mint condition and love this turntable, had a 2m blue on it for 3 years and sounded really great and still have it, just up graded to the 2m bronze. I read the blue was a better match for my pioneer tonearm mass with tracking forces of 1.8 And the 2m bronze I just installed is not as a good match because of its 1.5 tracking force being that the 518 has a medium tonearm mass.But it's all set up perfectly and sounds really great and it tracks very accurate with only 10 hours of run time on the broze should only get better to?
 
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RichTassoni said:
I read a little about this tonearm mass thing and still don't quite understand it, I have a Pioneer PL818 had a 2m blue on it sounded great. I read the blue was a good match for my pioneer tonearm mass with tracking forces of 1.8. And the 2m bronze I just installed is not as a good match because of its 1.5 tracking force. But it's all set up perfectly and sounds really great with only 10 hours of run time on it should only get better to?
Click to expand...

The tonearm to cartridge resonance equation is a reference ballpark figure to help them combination in a happy, happier or likely unhappy way. Not an exact science or a certification of optimal performance on it's own. Meaning that other factors will come into the game that may prove more relevant to the playback performance than the mere 10Hz figure one would try to get through the equation calculation. But the general consensus reckon that it's there or about at 10Hz...

A slightly higher compliant cart (Bronse) than a lesser one (Blue) shan't revoke the (same) tonearm performance one bit IME. Mind you the cartridge manufacturer's specifications are also 'nominal' FWIW. They are there mostly for reference. And so don't expect them to be so very 'precise' or 'static'. Even less so through time or in 'dynamic' situation evidently during playback on your system and in your record's groove. That which they did not measure in their laboratories...
 
Just wanted to wrap this up and again thank everyone for their wisdom.

@mkane sent me the Shure cartridge and the difference was like night and day. I was doubtful that it would be a major change and I was wrong. Who knew? Thanks Mike!

Matching the cart to the arm does make vinyl sound better. Now I have a real dynamic experience with full frequency response and great detail. Just finished listening to Graceland and it was alive.
 
Hello all. Sorry to jump in late here, but I have a very similar question. I have a 166 MKii with what appears to be the same arm, but currently set up with a Grado MT+. I purchased a super cheap technics for a friend that had a V15 HR-P and it made my realize that my Thorens sounds...well, bad. Based on this experience and this thread I am thinking that I should move with a Shure V15II ( @mkane - all ears if you happen to have a solution here! Thanks in advance). Considered using an adapter with the p-mount V15 I have, but I figure I cannot use due to my low mass arm. I am new to this and have really appreciated the education I already received in this thread. Any other guidance would be greatly appreciated.
 
According to the manual, I have a TP 11 MKIII Tone Arm.
TP 63 Cartridge wand
Effective length 230MM
Effective mass 7.5g

Lots more stats, but I am not sure that they are helpful. Thanks again!
 
I bet the AKG will sound just fine on your Thorens arm.

What is the compliance and weight of the AKG?

(Arm EF 7.5g + screws 1g + cart weight X) x Compliance Y = Z

159/square root of Z = Resonant Frequency (Hz)

The general range of "ideal" RF is between 8-12Hz

If you know X and Y, we can figure out Z and find your resonant frequency.

Note: I have used arm/cart matches that were outside the 8-12 range, that sounded great. I suspect now that I have added a subwoofer, better matching is more important.
 
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