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How many records can I play on a stylus
- Thread starter Mark 1234
- Start date
808_state
Super Member
I think you've done it Ken. Yet another qualifier to augment cart prices..."Now offering our top flight styli cut from only the finest GIA certified VVS1, VVS2 and premium FL diamonds...clarity your ears can hear!".
I'd buy it...
cafe latte
Addicted Member
I have an Eminent Technology on one of my turntables they won't extend stylus life the stylus is still dragged the same distance Nd actually there is an argument sugesting the stylus works harder with similar arms. They doing good though..
Chris
Pio1980
AK Member
Depends on how much tracing distortion you can tolerate. It begins when the contact profile is altered by attrition from contact friction and increases thereafter.
DeBeers notwithstanding, these diamonds are not forever.
Bill Hart
New Member
Hi, Gang. I'm Bill Hart, who published Mike Bodell's article, "The Finish Line for Your Phonograph Stylus" in TheVinylPress.com I'd like to make a few observations:
Much of the data and many of the studies are dated because once the LP was no longer a mainstream medium, there was little incentive for the companies to perform this research.
The Weiler article was not a study performed by Shure, although they have done their own studies. Weiler's work was published as a booklet by Climax Pub. in 1954 and is posted on the Shure website. Mike Bodell's effort to get a clear answer to the question 'how long does a stylus last' was based not only on the available studies, most of which were undertaken during the heyday of vinyl, but on input from stylus retippers, cartridge manufacturers and anecdotal reports from users who had their styli examined by a third party.
I'm not sure there is a good single answer to the question for several reasons-- there are variables in set up and the cleanliness of the records;
tracking force obviously plays some role, as does the shape of the stylus; the way the diamond is cut can also be a factor. Interestingly, one poster on the Hoffman thread said he has gotten 11 years of play from his London Decca; this intrigued me because the notable difference in design of that cartridge is the lack of a traditional cantilever, which suggests that the behavior of the cantilever could also play a role. (To that extent, it also raises questions of compliance of the cantilever/motor assembly design).
I certainly don't have one good answer to this question. I've used mostly high end MC cartridges for the last several decades and as one poster here observed, usually changed out the cartridge because I wanted to upgrade rather than because of demonstrable stylus wear.
Mike's article, which I think represents a very thorough survey of the literature and attempts to make sense of it based on examination of the styli by qualified people, indicates that there is microscopically discernible wear early on; there is probably some "gap" in time between first evidence of wear based on microscopic examination and when that wear manifests itself in distortion or mistracking. Clean records certainly help, based on evidence of the particulate matter found in the grooves, some of which is comprised of diamond dust. (I usually do a deep clean of a record once, when it first comes in-- mostly older pressings-- and typically don't reclean, let alone after each play). Keeping track of playing hours is instructive and I've started doing that using a tally counter. Not precise, but better than nothing.
Having the cartridge examined periodically probably makes sense. If you have multiple cartridges, you can suffer the absence of one while being sent out for examination or "retipping."
Mike's work was prompted by experiencing distortion on a cartridge which had a claimed stylus life far longer than that which an expert inspection revealed-- so he embarked on a quest to get some answers. I think he'd tell you that his work raised even more questions. One of his other objectives was to call for more concrete information from cartridge manufacturers. Apart from third party retippers, they are probably in the best position to provide concrete information on stylus wear.
I'm not particularly dogmatic about any of this. I've paid a lot of attention to record cleaning methods in the last few years, totally apart from the issue of stylus wear. I've gotten far more intense about the set up process-- I use a linear tracking arm, which presents a different set of issues than a conventional pivot arm. And, I've started to keep track of playing time using a click counter. I'd treat Mike's article as a starting point for thinking about this issue rather than providing a final answer to the question.
Bill Hart
Much of the data and many of the studies are dated because once the LP was no longer a mainstream medium, there was little incentive for the companies to perform this research.
The Weiler article was not a study performed by Shure, although they have done their own studies. Weiler's work was published as a booklet by Climax Pub. in 1954 and is posted on the Shure website. Mike Bodell's effort to get a clear answer to the question 'how long does a stylus last' was based not only on the available studies, most of which were undertaken during the heyday of vinyl, but on input from stylus retippers, cartridge manufacturers and anecdotal reports from users who had their styli examined by a third party.
I'm not sure there is a good single answer to the question for several reasons-- there are variables in set up and the cleanliness of the records;
tracking force obviously plays some role, as does the shape of the stylus; the way the diamond is cut can also be a factor. Interestingly, one poster on the Hoffman thread said he has gotten 11 years of play from his London Decca; this intrigued me because the notable difference in design of that cartridge is the lack of a traditional cantilever, which suggests that the behavior of the cantilever could also play a role. (To that extent, it also raises questions of compliance of the cantilever/motor assembly design).
I certainly don't have one good answer to this question. I've used mostly high end MC cartridges for the last several decades and as one poster here observed, usually changed out the cartridge because I wanted to upgrade rather than because of demonstrable stylus wear.
Mike's article, which I think represents a very thorough survey of the literature and attempts to make sense of it based on examination of the styli by qualified people, indicates that there is microscopically discernible wear early on; there is probably some "gap" in time between first evidence of wear based on microscopic examination and when that wear manifests itself in distortion or mistracking. Clean records certainly help, based on evidence of the particulate matter found in the grooves, some of which is comprised of diamond dust. (I usually do a deep clean of a record once, when it first comes in-- mostly older pressings-- and typically don't reclean, let alone after each play). Keeping track of playing hours is instructive and I've started doing that using a tally counter. Not precise, but better than nothing.
Having the cartridge examined periodically probably makes sense. If you have multiple cartridges, you can suffer the absence of one while being sent out for examination or "retipping."
Mike's work was prompted by experiencing distortion on a cartridge which had a claimed stylus life far longer than that which an expert inspection revealed-- so he embarked on a quest to get some answers. I think he'd tell you that his work raised even more questions. One of his other objectives was to call for more concrete information from cartridge manufacturers. Apart from third party retippers, they are probably in the best position to provide concrete information on stylus wear.
I'm not particularly dogmatic about any of this. I've paid a lot of attention to record cleaning methods in the last few years, totally apart from the issue of stylus wear. I've gotten far more intense about the set up process-- I use a linear tracking arm, which presents a different set of issues than a conventional pivot arm. And, I've started to keep track of playing time using a click counter. I'd treat Mike's article as a starting point for thinking about this issue rather than providing a final answer to the question.
Bill Hart
phantomrebel
Serial Tapist
Folks often argue about the hardness of diamond that will resist wear, particularly when only contacting soft plastic. While this is true, I use the analogy of the steps I've seen around the world that are worn from foot traffic or the stone statues and metal railings worn from hand touching. Everything wears when rubbed, even at the molecular level with atomic attrition. I've read that each average lp record side the stylus travels over a quarter mile at average 20" per second and the distance per revolution is much shorter on the inner groove than on the outer groove (speed being 8" per second on the innermost grove). After 500 hours I cannot imagine no stylus wear even on the best table with cleanest records under these conditions.
All jokes aside, some research has shown that almost all living animals tend to die of old age around 2.4 billion hearbeats. I read that somewhere, and cannot footnote, but it stuck with me.
I guess if you exert yourself, and get your resting heart rate low, it is offset by the speeding up of the exercise?
Your line about entropy is pure gold. Yup yup.
@Bill Hart WELCOME TO AUDIOKARMA, and thank you for your most excellent contribution to this thread, sir.
Bill Hart
New Member
Thanks, you are quite welcome, Mike Bodell really did all the heavy lifting on that one. He wrote a piece on the history of ultrasonic record cleaning that I had published and when Mike started telling me about his experience with his cartridge and some of his research, I invited him to send me his work after he had written it up, to publish as an article.
I've kind of slacked off most of the audio fora (perhaps just a phase). I've long been a gear hound, but my interest is older, often obscure or overlooked records, so I've been dwelling in this space between audiophiles, record collectors and music fanatics. I also like the process of learning and research, at least if it is something I'm interested in. I'm now retired, so I also have more time to pursue some of these interests.
I've obviously been aware of audio karma for a while. Saw the comments on the article here and thought I'd add my perspective.
We're honored to have you.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
To add to the confusion. Here is a response from a retipper I use. He uses Namiki diamonds and cantilevers.
Hi John ,
A diamond tip on a mc cartridge lasts quite long years,
I would say more than min. 3K hours or up/.
So no correlation, and clarity of answer provides by this response.
Cheers
Mister Pig
Hi John ,
A diamond tip on a mc cartridge lasts quite long years,
I would say more than min. 3K hours or up/.
So no correlation, and clarity of answer provides by this response.
Cheers
Mister Pig
Bill Hart
New Member
@onwardjames --Ha. Anybody with a few bucks can set up a website and post stuff. I'm hardly a guru-- i'm constantly learning.
But thank you, that's kind.
But thank you, that's kind.
Andre Garcia
“WITHOUT MUSIC, LIFE WOULD BE A MISTAKE”
Thanks @Bill Hart to take the time, deeply appreciated.
Mark 1234
Addicted Member
Maybe AK can have a thread where you can select your cartridge and upload the record your playing and have it keep track over time.
Or maybe new app design project for my son.
The creator of this world wide app project could keep track of the lives of each cartridge if users marked it sold, broken, retipped or trashed when done with the cart.
Or maybe new app design project for my son.
The creator of this world wide app project could keep track of the lives of each cartridge if users marked it sold, broken, retipped or trashed when done with the cart.
cafe latte
Addicted Member
We can all claim whatever we want, but put a 500 hour stylus under a microscope yourself and have a look. I have, my records are very clean and tracking forces are low. The wear after 500 hours on even line contact is significant and it will be audible.
Chris
Does anyone other than myself think things have changed a bit since these last studies were done? I mean 1950's and 1960's? I have old tables from that era like my Rec-O-Kut, and my Empire. What about stylus sizes?
I mean those old carts with their big chunky cantilevers, they seem like they would take a lot to move them compared to the tiny cantilever on my AT MC cart which is so small you can barely see it, tracking at 2 grams. Something has to be said for the amount of effort to move a large object over a tiny one and how it effect wear. Less mass means less effort to move and react means less mistracking, less wear.
As to your friend with his Decca cart lasting so long, what empirical evidence is there to back his claims, just his word? And if any cart should show wear quickly a Decca should as they have almost no compliance (suspension) making them more likely to be quicker to wear and damage records.
A high compliance cart should be best at lasting the longest and being the most forgiving on record wear. And that was what was partly behind all the move in the past to produce those types of arms and carts. Less weight on the stylus contact area, and larger contact area, with exotic profiles means less wear, better tracking, and longer life. .
I mean those old carts with their big chunky cantilevers, they seem like they would take a lot to move them compared to the tiny cantilever on my AT MC cart which is so small you can barely see it, tracking at 2 grams. Something has to be said for the amount of effort to move a large object over a tiny one and how it effect wear. Less mass means less effort to move and react means less mistracking, less wear.
As to your friend with his Decca cart lasting so long, what empirical evidence is there to back his claims, just his word? And if any cart should show wear quickly a Decca should as they have almost no compliance (suspension) making them more likely to be quicker to wear and damage records.
A high compliance cart should be best at lasting the longest and being the most forgiving on record wear. And that was what was partly behind all the move in the past to produce those types of arms and carts. Less weight on the stylus contact area, and larger contact area, with exotic profiles means less wear, better tracking, and longer life. .