How many run a subwoofer w/ their 2 channel stereo?

[Mike_S]

Didn't think I need a sub. Tried for almost a year to get the punch, and slam from my speakers. Unless the volume was high, it just wasn't there. I got bass, just no impact. Added a sub, changed everything, then added another sub, that change was just as big. A proper sub setup changes everything. It brings out detail you didn't know was there, it add texture, impact, weirdly helps with the mids and highs.

Now I just broke the budget, purchased 2 ML Abyss 10 subs with 800w RPS amps, this again was a game changer! To say I can pressurize the room is an understatement, think I can now blow my windows out. It's taken a couple weeks to get the levels and crossovers setup during break in. Just did DSP last night, again, WOW. SUB ROCK! DO IT!

 

[kmagnuss]

Didn't think I need a sub. Tried for almost a year to get the punch, and slam from my speakers. Unless the volume was high, it just wasn't there. I got bass, just no impact. Added a sub, changed everything, then added another sub, that change was just as big. A proper sub setup changes everything. It brings out detail you didn't know was there, it add texture, impact, weirdly helps with the mids and highs.

Now I just broke the budget, purchased 2 ML Abyss 10 subs with 800w RPS amps, this again was a game changer! To say I can pressurize the room is an understatement, think I can now blow my windows out. It's taken a couple weeks to get the levels and crossovers setup during break in. Just did DSP last night, again, WOW. SUB ROCK! DO IT!

View attachment 3656421

Great looking setup. You just finish mowing the lawn or something? (your socks, lol)

 

[peterp1]

I would encourage everyone to think about a subwoofer not just in the context of your main system. It's the smaller systems that get even more benefit from a sub, and there are many ways to hide a sub. Here's an example of a low-file sub and Fosi amp hidden behind our refrigerator. All that is visible are the tiny Canton Plus S speakers mounted under the cabinets -- and it's all controlled with a single Roku remote (the TV is the "preamp" to the hidden Fosi amp for TV/Spotify/Pandora/YouTube/Netflix/Prime/etc. via Roku).

The iPhone mic in the video below overboosts the bass a bit (at least on my computer audio, which of course has a sub ) -- but it sounds amazing in real life. My wife loves this system. Without the sub it sounds quite good, but with the sub it souds amazing. It's rare for someone new to walk into our kitchen and not comment about the sound of this (mostly) invisible system.

 

[HalfApt]

I have run subwoofers continuously since first hearing what they can do for the aural experience (1978). Have had 3 different types over the years, all stereo, always bi-amped.

1) DIY 12' transmission lines w/KEF B-139 woofers, '79-'85.
2) Satterberg MW-1 designed specifically for Rogers LS3-5A, '85-'98
3) DIY sealed w/NHT 1259 woofers, '98 to date.

Can't imagine going without.

 

[Mike_S]

Great looking setup. You just finish mowing the lawn or something? (your socks, lol)

Thanks, yeah, my socks were wet, just got back from taking the dog to the wet park, you can see all her murder on the floor from her latest "lets see what's on the inside".

 

[peterp1]

For the people who are happy with 2-channel systems without a sub, it would be interesting to know what type of system they have. Maybe I’ll create a new thread with a poll for that later, but it would be interesting to know in the context of this thread.

Of the following system types (all variations I can think of):

1. Vintage receiver (virtually all have loudness controls, none have DSP)
2. 2-channel amp using DSP fine-tuned using something like REW (e.g. miniDSP, Crown amp DSP, etc.)
3. AVR for 2-channel, built-in room correction fine-tuned using something like REW
4. Modern 2-channel amp, no DSP with loudness control (very few, some Yamahas and others excepted)
5. AVR for 2-channel, room correction using only built-in automatic correction
6. Modern 2-channel amp, no DSP without loudness control (vast majority of modern amps)

I’d guess that types 1-4 could do very well without a subwoofer, it set up correctly. System type 5 would be conditional (based upon the AVR correction software/mic placement, etc.). I suspect it would be somewhat rare for type 6 to perform well without a sub (at least at low volumes).

 

[drumbum]

subwoogers are a fad like pet rocks.



lol

 

[jrtrent]

For the people who are happy with 2-channel systems without a sub, it would be interesting to know what type of system they have. Maybe I’ll create a new thread with a poll for that later, but it would be interesting to know in the context of this thread. . . I’d guess that types 1-4 could do very well without a subwoofer, it set up correctly. System type 5 would be conditional (based upon the AVR correction software/mic placement, etc.). I suspect it would be somewhat rare for type 6 to perform well without a sub (at least at low volumes).

Mine is type 6, with no loudness or DSP, assuming you mean Digital Signal Processing (my forgetful mind had to look that one up). It does, however, have tone controls. Dynaco had an interesting take on the loudness switch, saying:

"A separate loudness switch is neither necessary nor provided in the PAT-5, for it is easy to preset the bass and treble controls to supply the loudness compensation to suit your needs. With the tone controls switched out, no compensation is obtained. When background listening requires compensation, simply push on the tone controls switch to engage the chosen tonal correction."

I will say, though, that I've auditioned amplifiers whose tone controls were too subtle in operation to help much with emulating a loudness circuit or cutting enough bass to turn muddy, chesty sounding lecture recordings into something easy to understand and enjoy. Tone controls spec'd at the common ±10 dB at 100 Hz and 10 kHz generally work pretty well for me.

 

[tourmax]

I would fall under #1, but I also use a sub.

My receiver is a Sansui 8080DB, which has two preamp line outs. One goes to the internal amp via a “jumper” and one is free and available. Sansui built it that way so it could be “bi-amped” if the owner wanted.

I use the second preamp line out to feed a powered sub in my “vintage two channel” system.

 

[SaturationPt]

Only one of my systems runs without a sub; the main system, which would be a type 2.

2. 2-channel amp using DSP fine-tuned using something like REW (e.g. miniDSP, Crown amp DSP, etc.)

I think that additional context could be useful being the type of amplification: 500WPC, speakers: Large Format, roll-off = 24Hz -3dB, music preference = varied.

Other systems with subwoofers = yes.

 

[Gigantic]

For the people who are happy with 2-channel systems without a sub, it would be interesting to know what type of system they have. Maybe I’ll create a new thread with a poll for that later, but it would be interesting to know in the context of this thread.

Of the following system types (all variations I can think of):

1. Vintage receiver (virtually all have loudness controls, none have DSP)
2. 2-channel amp using DSP fine-tuned using something like REW (e.g. miniDSP, Crown amp DSP, etc.)
3. AVR for 2-channel, built-in room correction fine-tuned using something like REW
4. Modern 2-channel amp, no DSP with loudness control (very few, some Yamahas and others excepted)
5. AVR for 2-channel, room correction using only built-in automatic correction
6. Modern 2-channel amp, no DSP without loudness control (vast majority of modern amps)

I’d guess that types 1-4 could do very well without a subwoofer, it set up correctly. System type 5 would be conditional (based upon the AVR correction software/mic placement, etc.). I suspect it would be somewhat rare for type 6 to perform well without a sub (at least at low volumes).

7. 2-Channel Separates with a professional DSP speaker management processor and individual amps for each speaker driver, with parametric eq to tune the speakers and room using REW.

 

[peterp1]

Mine is type 6, with no loudness or DSP, assuming you mean Digital Signal Processing (my forgetful mind had to look that one up). It does, however, have tone controls. Dynaco had an interesting take on the loudness switch, saying:

"A separate loudness switch is neither necessary nor provided in the PAT-5, for it is easy to preset the bass and treble controls to supply the loudness compensation to suit your needs. With the tone controls switched out, no compensation is obtained. When background listening requires compensation, simply push on the tone controls switch to engage the chosen tonal correction."

I will say, though, that I've auditioned amplifiers whose tone controls were too subtle in operation to help much with emulating a loudness circuit or cutting enough bass to turn muddy, chesty sounding lecture recordings into something easy to understand and enjoy. Tone controls spec'd at the common ±10 dB at 100 Hz and 10 kHz generally work pretty well for me.

Thanks for the feedback. This is a bit of a manual loudness, which does work. A true loudness circuit is a bit different in that the circuit typically progressively reduces the amount of loudness boost as the volume control knob is turned up, so it's kind of a "set and forget" (helps for low volume levels but phases out as volume is increased).

I often hear people say that "loudness" (either a switch or manually boosting bass/treble at low volume on your PAT-5) is a relic from the past, and that's why modern amps don't need or have them. They are objectively not right about that. It's the fact that human ears are less sensitive to low and high frequencies at low volume levels that requires a loudness compensation to preserve fidelity (as our ears perceive it) at low volume.

Given that it's a human hearing thing, you'd kind of think that even a subwoofer would not solve the low volume hearing deficits, but subs do seem to fix it at low volume also (or at least help it a lot). A lot of people think about subs in the context of thumping at high volume, but to me the more sublime benefit is having very deep extension even at low volumes (especially since probably 90% of my listening is at low volumes).

 

[fxer1982]

So just got through refurbishing some Horizon speakers. While they have decent bass, I have always run that sub for that extra kick, but alas these sound so damned good.

i have three way speakers with 15" woofers, mid horns, high freq horn don't need any subs looking at them or facing away from them there is no loss in bass.
Im using a 1961 Stromberg Carlson Pre amp with active EQ two 12AU7 tubes a 12AX7 each channel into Stromberg Carlson AP-437 Push Pull 1958 Tung-Sol 6550 Black Plate 3 getter tubes at 40 Continue watts, instantaneous 100 Watts say when big drum hit hard...over 112 DBL 1 watt at 3 meteres Altec Lansing 1975 model 17's using Stromberg Carlson three way crossovers.. loaded with Altec 422 8z woofers, magnavox mid horns, zenith high freq horns...they maybe frankinstined by sound better than my cornwall I from 1977...

 

[C Hart]

Unfortunately you left out at least a few configs. My 2.0 main system, for example, was a vintage receiver with loudness and no DSP - so far so good. But since then I made it into a preamp, amp equalizer combo REW'd (though clumsily). Any receiver with pre-outs/-ins could do the same. The speakers have been JBL L166 for a while. Bass is quite adequate from the 12" Fs=17 woofers. The system is probably F3 about 45 Hz.

 

[Apreggiator]

I think I'll go back to running one sub (of the two pictured below) with my main speakers.

 

[H2oman7.62mm]

I tried a sub and it was okay, but I ended up selling it after I hooked up a set of ADS L980/2's. The 980's reach down low making the sub unnecessary in my room, this soundtrack confirms my findings.

 

[Nkuruma]

I had a KEF sub as part of a home theatre system, handed me down from my parents a few years ago. I eventually removed the sub after acquiring my first vintage audio components. I have an unusual shaped room and it was always hard to place with my (newly acquired at the time) vintage speakers (the sub was either in the way or sounding very directional and boomy). Now that I recently acquired my end-game speakers (Pioneer HPM-200), I feel there's plenty bass and never miss my sub (I wouldn't had room for it anyway). I love interior design and a sub made the room not as functional or nice looking. My compromise was to find speakers with enough bass to not need a sub.

 

[Apreggiator]

I tried a sub and it was okay, but I ended up selling it after I hooked up a set of ADS L980/2's. The 980's reach down low making the sub unnecessary in my room, this soundtrack confirms my findings.

This is exactly where it's at. A subwoofer is not a necessity in combination with any speaker nor is it always desirable in terms of listening preference.
To some it's mandatory though.

 

[peterp1]

There are some scenarios where you don't need a sub. In my experience, it's far more likely to be able to go without a sub with vintage equipment. The only 1 of my 10+ systems in the house that doesn't have (or really need) a sub is the only true vintage (70's) system I have, and it's a relatively modest system.

In any case where a sub is boomy or doesn't sound good -- it's mistuned (e.g. out of phase, wrong crossover, wrong level, etc). "Boomy" is never excess deep bass, it's from the bass being "doubled" by mains and sub from having the sub crossover too high. Properly tuned, the sub will take over exactly where the mains drop off, so it will extend the bass much deeper without ever being boomy.

If phase is wrong (which is very easy to do), a sub absolutely cannot be tuned properly -- there will be hole in midbass main/sub overlap frequencies where output is being stolen from both the main speakers (whose lowest frequencies are cancelled out) and the upper frequencies of the sub. There is also likely to be overboosting of the lowest frequencies of the sub because you have to really crank up the sub level to make up for the substantial amount of sub output that is lost from the cancelled overlap frequencies with the mains.

If there is a time alignment issue, then the bass with a sub can be sloppy. I had this when I used an old (slow) digital EQ (Velodyne SMS-1) to shape the sub output on an analog tube amp -- the latency from the EQ to the sub made the sub output slightly delayed from the mains so the bass was sloppy and couldn't be fixed. The mains/sub output curves were perfect, but bass sounded sloppy. Fixed by removing the EQ and just using analog built-in sub controls with no latency.

There are systems that don't need a sub (far more likely to be vintage systems). But it's important to know that a quality sub can't sound bad -- it can only help by taking over exactly as the mains roll off. Anything negative sounding in a sub is tuning issue.

 

[Adamo0926]

I tried a sub and it was okay, but I ended up selling it after I hooked up a set of ADS L980/2's. The 980's reach down low making the sub unnecessary in my room, this soundtrack confirms my findings.

I use an SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer with my ADS L810's. But I have heard the L980's and they definitely do not need a sub.....the bass on those L980's s epic.