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How to cut a 28 minute record side and get away with it

muovimies

muovimies

Super Member
I recently came upon a Ray Anderson's What Because on vinyl. Running time for the whole album is just 3 seconds short of 56 minutes. The sides are pretty evenly spaced, about 27.45 for side A and 28.15 for side B. I wasn't expecting much for sound quality because of the long sides, but it's remarkable for such long cuts. Bass is deep and overall dynamics are good, though overall volume is just a tad down.

What's interesting is despite the extremely long running time, Side A has over an inch of run out area from the end of the last track to the record label. Side B runs a bit closer to label, but still leaves a lot of space. This is an original Swiss pressing made by Turicaphon AG, no idea who's responsible, but mastering is credited to Bob Ludwig on the record sleeve.

I've found usually anything close to 25 minutes per side and you're basically doomed especially towards the end of side, especially when buying used - usually some previous owner has carved the inner grooves with their bad/worn/incorrectly set up stylus, even if your equipment could handle it. Not so with this one. I laud whoever is responsible for great work. It also raises the question why more discs weren't pressed like this, it seems to me whatever the tradeoffs of spacing the grooves a bit tighter (volume loss mainly I suppose) would seem worth it as opposed to running very close to the label. I wonder is consumer perception has been part of it - "they left half the disc unused, I want my money's worth!"? :)
 
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KTel (Ron Popeil) used to issue records of popular hits with over average running times. (late '60's to mid'70's). The fidelity was poor. I know at least part of the reason was the poor pressings, but in order to get those times per side, the grooves had to be very thin.
 
Radio Shack managed to get about 45 minutes per side on an LP.

R-5072744-1428609598-9633.jpeg.jpg


I have no idea how good it sounds, but quite a feat anyway.
 
The 'live' side of Mountain's "Flowers of Evil" album has over average run time, as well. Overall volume is lower than that of the other, studio recorded side.
 
pretweak said:
You sure this isn't 2 discs?
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Not the most reliable source in the world, but Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LP_record

"An extremely limited number of albums would eventually exceed even the 52-minute limitation, with single albums going to as long as ninety minutes in the case of Arthur Fiedler's 1976 LP 90 Minutes with Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops, made by Radio Shack.[16]However, such records had to be cut with much narrower spacing between the grooves, which allowed for a much smaller amount of dynamic range on the records, and meant that playing the record with a worn needle could damage the record."

If I could get a clearer image of the cover, it even mentions it in the cover text.
 
I have some other records with equally long sides and even some over 30 minute, but most of them don't sound very good... just very dead and flat sounding overall, lacking dynamic punch etc.

The amazing thing about What Because is it has 28 minute sides and yet sounds better than a lot of other stuff with moderate runtime.
 
Ultimately, it comes down to great mastering and planning. Read-ahead tape machines could calculate the pitch required to avoid kissing the neighbors, and do so on a diameter-dependent basis. Read-ahead is a bit of a misnomer, because there were two playback heads on a long tape path -- one for physics calculation and one for actual audio use. Plus limiting, EQ, not cutting quite as "hot", making the between-track banding smaller in distance and time, and making the most use of the outer perimeter of the disk with a smaller lead-in area. Plus, using Bob Ludwig in the first place.

Chip
 
A particularly horrible example of trying to cram too much on a piece of vinyl is the release, "The Superior Sound of Elton John". I had this on CD back in the 80's and hadn't seen nor heard it in decades. I remembered really enjoying Gus Dudgeon's remixes and remastering of some of Elton's biggest hits, so naturally I sought it out on vinyl, never bothering to remember or look at how many tracks it contained. It would appear that they crammed the same release on to vinyl. The volume is very low, so the S/N ratio is fairly awful, and it's susceptible to every click and pop that you can imagine. Worse yet, it sounds lifeless and muffled and constipated. Truly an awful release and what a shame. If they'd made a 2 lp set, it would have been spectacular.
 
Chip Chester said:
Ultimately, it comes down to great mastering and planning. Read-ahead tape machines could calculate the pitch required to avoid kissing the neighbors, and do so on a diameter-dependent basis. Read-ahead is a bit of a misnomer, because there were two playback heads on a long tape path -- one for physics calculation and one for actual audio use. Plus limiting, EQ, not cutting quite as "hot", making the between-track banding smaller in distance and time, and making the most use of the outer perimeter of the disk with a smaller lead-in area. Plus, using Bob Ludwig in the first place.
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Yeah there are compromises, there's no free lunch, and I can hear them if I focus on them, but they've picked all the right ones and known exactly where to make them for the most benefit without getting in the way of the music. Masterful job and it's always a joy to come upon something done really well, a bit like a knife (or piece of furniture or whatever) made by a master craftsman.
 
DustyOldPile said:
The volume is very low, so the S/N ratio is fairly awful, and it's susceptible to every click and pop that you can imagine. Worse yet, it sounds lifeless and muffled and constipated. Truly an awful release and what a shame. If they'd made a 2 lp set, it would have been spectacular.
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Yeah, plenty of those around, especially from the time when CD had already appeared on the market and was the main format for many releases. And even before that on many compilations where they seemingly felt like they had to squeeze everything in there - and still sometimes making shortened versions of some songs :D
 
Join Mitchell's masterpiece "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" was cut on four relatively brief but stunning sides.
Side one of Genesis' Trick of the Tail was cut almost to the label, still sounded pretty good.
 
Todd Rundgrun, A Wizard, ATrue Star..

I've not yet tracked it.. I checked it into my collection last night and noticed how far to the label it was pressed.
 
Interesting thread! I masters a live album for a band that had over 60 minutes on it. It was tricky, and more of finding what cart/stylus would bring out as much as possible from it. The WORSE part however was that he had outtakes on 1st gen. masters on reel he wanted to add to the CD, and trying to get them to sound the same? Ugh......
 
elvi said:
Todd Rundgrun, A Wizard, ATrue Star..

I've not yet tracked it.. I checked it into my collection last night and noticed how far to the label it was pressed.
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Side 1 checks in at around 26 minutes, side 2 is a bit over 29. Todd tended to push the boundaries of what an LP record could hold during his early '70s 'prog' period. Side 2 of the first Utopia LP is made up of one single 30 minute track, and the album as a whole is a bit under an hour long. His biggest offender, however, is "Initiation", which clocks in at a bit over 67 minutes, including one single track on side 2 which runs for well over 35 minutes! He even made pointed reference to this tendency in the liner notes for these LPs, including the following "Technical Note" on the inner sleeve for Initiation:

"Due to the amount of music on this disc (over one hour), two points must be emphasized. Firstly, if your needle is worn or damaged, it will ruin this disc immediately. Secondly, if the sound does not seem loud enough on your system, try re-recording the music onto tape. By the way, thanks for buying the album." :rflmao:
 
I think over the pond they had the idea that louder is not necessarily better. Their version of Golden Earring - Moontan is cut at a lower level and has a much wider leadout than the US counterpart. While the US version wears out and sounds muddy toward the end of each side after many plays, the European version sounds better than a CD all the way to the end. However the level is lower and you need a better TT to not have acoustic feedback when playing it loud and lower rumble of course.

Bottom line is that the grooves can be spaced at almost half the groove modulation. The fidelity of their version of Moontan is a testament to the wisdom of turning the level down a bit. Everything here sounds like it is clipping. I have noticed this on a bunch of digital music at work and there is no reason for it. It is simply too loud.

But through the 1980s they started making those junk plastic turntables. They were made to play ubercompressed top 40. So was everything else. There was no more bottom octave so you didn't need as much real suspension, and they slightly changed RIAA EQ to get rid of some of the subsonic noise.

They had a similar approach to FM, their modulation is only 2/3rds of ours. The preemphasis and deemphasis are less. that means it takes a better signal to sound good, but I would imagine that in most places there they get less multipath. With FM, os much of it can be wrecked with multipath it isn't funny.

It is like they went for quality when the US went for quantity. At least that is how it seems to me.
 
elvi said:
Todd Rundgrun, A Wizard, ATrue Star..

I've not yet tracked it.. I checked it into my collection last night and noticed how far to the label it was pressed.
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Yes, this is another excellent RL cut, at least the version I have. Overall volume is lowish but with very good fidelity and the sides approach 30 min.

I have several classical LPs with sides that long also, mostly DMM pressings. I recall them sounding fine.
 
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