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How to make digital sound like analog vinyl?
- Thread starter kattz
- Start date
Audiobro
Active Member
Couldn't agree more, to much time is spent bashing the "other guy". It should be spent on touting one's triumphs and failure's. I try to speak of my own experiences as just that, not as some kind of universal fact. Does the journey ever end?
BeerCan
Tá mé ar meisce.
Thanks for the advice. I was considering Ortofon 2m Bronze, since the Red has been such a good entry level piece. My preamp does MC, so no additional equipment needed. I will give further consideration. Just so everyone knows my standing, I sincerely wish that digital sounded as good to me, I would have no need for my Nitty Gritty, tracking force gauge, cartridge alignment protractor, hundreds of pounds of black PVC disks, etc. All I would need is a good laptop(already have) and a DAC, far less to fuss over and much lighter.
Well in the end it is what you end up enjoying and are happy with. That is all that matters really, the vinyl v. digital debate will rage forever and as long as both technologies advance we all win IMO. My son is a vinyl junkie, he loves the feel, sound, art etc. that comes with that format. Reminds me of how I was at his age. I prefer the ease of use and sound I get from digital, we are both happy and coexist quite easily.
EDIT: BTW for most of us the journey never ends and I like it that way. The pursuit is as enjoyable as the destination for me.
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lizard84
Abider
:nono: Typical response from somebody that should be looking in the mirror while holding their ancient dac. Couldn't leave it alone could you, you had to go there. That post will tell most unbiased forum dwellers everything they need to know about you. Welcome to my ignore list, say hello to Mr Bare.
BeerCan
Tá mé ar meisce.
I agree a 20 yo dac is not the best way to judge modern digital. I had an assemblage from the same era that I thought was the bomb until I compared it to the CIA Dac and realized life had moved on and I had not. However with as strong as of an opinion as he has regarding vinyl, I am going to have to at least assume he has listened to a DAC from this century at least. BTW the Pacific Microsonics' PMD100 in that dac sucked, Pacific Microsonics' PMD200 was a much better unit.
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enginedr
Super Member
The one thing that amazes me the most . The fact that a lot of really good music is on CD
Format only . If one loves to listen to a large variety you might as well briing both your
Anolog and digital front end up to a higher level . My format is better than yours is getting
Old . Enjoy the music that's what it's all about !!
Format only . If one loves to listen to a large variety you might as well briing both your
Anolog and digital front end up to a higher level . My format is better than yours is getting
Old . Enjoy the music that's what it's all about !!
Whaddup
Active Member
Well in the end it is what you end up enjoying and are happy with. That is all that matters really, the vinyl v. digital debate will rage forever and as long as both technologies advance we all win IMO. My son is a vinyl junkie, he loves the feel, sound, art etc. that comes with that format. Reminds me of how I was at his age. I prefer the ease of use and sound I get from digital, we are both happy and coexist quite easily.
EDIT: BTW for most of us the journey never ends and I like it that way. The pursuit is as enjoyable as the destination for me.
I do not see TT technology advancing. I see it fading if anything. Golden age was many years ago imo where dacs are just starting to hit their golden age.
BeerCan
Tá mé ar meisce.
I think if it hangs on and has some growth we might see some clever things emerge. Laser needles or something like that.
Pauln
Well-Known Member
Let's take a look at harmonic distortion in a digital system and a phonograph system.
Both systems comprise a series of stages, each of which distorts the signal, but these distortions do not sum additively or multiplicatively; they sum by quadrature, which is the fancy word for "square root of the algebraic sum of squares".
For example, let's take these figures and see what happens:
CD - 0.01%
Stylus - 0.6%
Phono EQ - 0.1%
Preamp - 0.05%
Power Amp - 0.1%
For the CD system, total harmonic distortion is
SQRT[ (0.01^2) + (0.05^2) + (0.1^2) ]
SQRT[ 0.0001 + 0.0025 + 0.01 ]
SQRT[ 0.0126 ]
= about 0.1% for the CD system
For the phono system:
SQRT[ (0.6^2) + (0.1^2) + (0.05^2) + (0.1^2) ]
SQRT[ 0.36 + 0.01 + 0.0025 + 0.01 ]
SQRT[ 0.3825 ]
= about .6% for the phono system
Let's see what happens when the speakers are added...
The majority of conventional speakers have a harmonic distortion between 10-30% (which is why only a couple of speaker manufacturers have ever revealed their measurements of this), even the fully loaded large horn systems, ribbons, and plasma tweeters and other "exotic" technologies barely get below 3% at moderately loud levels.
Taking very good conventional speakers as 15%...
CD system becomes SQRT[225.0126] = 15%
Phono sys becomes SQRT[225.3825] = 15%
What if you listen quietly at 2% exotic speaker distortion?
CD system becomes SQRT[4.0126] = 2.003%
Phono sys becomes SQRT[4.3825] = 2.093%
The way quadrature works, some of the distortions in previous stages when subsequently distorted in following stages are going to be distorted back to their original undistorted states, and quadrature accounts for this interaction between all the stages. If you understand negative feedback you already know the principle of how this works.
Maybe any discussion of distortion probably needs to be talking most about the speakers?
Both systems comprise a series of stages, each of which distorts the signal, but these distortions do not sum additively or multiplicatively; they sum by quadrature, which is the fancy word for "square root of the algebraic sum of squares".
For example, let's take these figures and see what happens:
CD - 0.01%
Stylus - 0.6%
Phono EQ - 0.1%
Preamp - 0.05%
Power Amp - 0.1%
For the CD system, total harmonic distortion is
SQRT[ (0.01^2) + (0.05^2) + (0.1^2) ]
SQRT[ 0.0001 + 0.0025 + 0.01 ]
SQRT[ 0.0126 ]
= about 0.1% for the CD system
For the phono system:
SQRT[ (0.6^2) + (0.1^2) + (0.05^2) + (0.1^2) ]
SQRT[ 0.36 + 0.01 + 0.0025 + 0.01 ]
SQRT[ 0.3825 ]
= about .6% for the phono system
Let's see what happens when the speakers are added...
The majority of conventional speakers have a harmonic distortion between 10-30% (which is why only a couple of speaker manufacturers have ever revealed their measurements of this), even the fully loaded large horn systems, ribbons, and plasma tweeters and other "exotic" technologies barely get below 3% at moderately loud levels.
Taking very good conventional speakers as 15%...
CD system becomes SQRT[225.0126] = 15%
Phono sys becomes SQRT[225.3825] = 15%
What if you listen quietly at 2% exotic speaker distortion?
CD system becomes SQRT[4.0126] = 2.003%
Phono sys becomes SQRT[4.3825] = 2.093%
The way quadrature works, some of the distortions in previous stages when subsequently distorted in following stages are going to be distorted back to their original undistorted states, and quadrature accounts for this interaction between all the stages. If you understand negative feedback you already know the principle of how this works.
Maybe any discussion of distortion probably needs to be talking most about the speakers?
robgmn
Super Member
Except you forget that the speakers, etc. are usually "static" and you are switching back and forth between the sources. This makes any differences between sources more likely audible.
Also, we're not just talking a THD figure.
"Distortion" is any change from the original signal.
A decrease in channel separation is a distortion.
Applying an RIAA curve introduces a distortion.
Limiting frequencies due to the physical capabilities of the medium is a distortion.
Crosstalk is a distortion.
Carts that have a sonic signature ("warm", "cool", "crisp", etc.) introduce distortion.
Motor rumble is a distortion.
Etc., etc., etc.
Add it all up and it is a lot more than a .093% difference between the mediums.
Not bashing any medium (distortion has been a big factor in some of the music I like the most), but facts are facts.
Preferring one medium over another does not make that medium "better", it just means you like it more.
The "better" medium is the one that is most accurate to the original recording.
EyeGee
Big Ears
I also wanted to "warm up" all my digital (CD's) music ... I must say my Maverick DAC with the solitary tube in it has been impressive. It still really doesn't replicate the "sound of vinyl" but certainly gives a fullness to the whole spectrum, and tends to mellow the high end ...
Objective versus subjective differences will fuel a discussion like this for eons. Vinyl and digital each have their charms. Depends on which charm has the most resonance for someone. I exited vinyl this year - probably for good. Not because I didn't care for the sound, but because I find I just don't have the time and energy for the vinyl "labor of love" anymore to get the sound I want out of the medium.
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Herr Eickhorn
Born again Alien
This guy says CD sounds harsh & digital because the polarity is inverted. Play back the CD in absolute polarity through a good DAC, and it will sound like vinyl.
http://www.absolutepolarity.com/
http://www.absolutepolarity.com/
smurfer77
Super Member
As others have mentioned here it is tricky to compare LP to cd/mp3 in cases when mastering is different. Sometimes the LP of an album sounds better, sometimes the CD. I have started ripping my favourite vinyls; my friends can't tell the different between the FLAC and 320 kbps versions. I actually like to remove a bit of the worst of the pops and crackle and there is the added advantage that I'm not wearing out my rare vinyls. If recorded properly the magic of the vinyl masters can be captured onto a digital format (i.e. the poor sound you hear from some cds/mp3s, is not always a limitation of the media/file format). Check some quality rips from Dr Rob, Aksman, etc., and compare to your vinyl - their digital versions will probably sound better than your vinyl due to their superior vinyl gear. (PBTHAL is another well known vinyl ripper but I've personally had mixed experiences with his rips.)
Another thing to think about is using the tone controls if the vinyl/CD masters are EQ'd differently - this to me would be preferable compared to randomly trying tube buffers etc until you find the magic sauce (lets face it, that is just EQ from the tube (forgetting non-linearity for the moment)). But sadly, is the dynamic compression that has gone wild on the digital versions and not much you can do about that (except rip your vinyls to FLAC/mp3
. Ripping vinyls to PC properly is not easy - it took me 6 months to a level that I am proud to share with audiophiles.
SoNic67
Well-Known Member
Easy test that I did a few years ago: Just wire your speakers reverse, see if you discern anything different. Except for some sharp bass attacks that I thought it was a maybe, for most of music I didn't hear anything.
I didn't do A-B in real time though... because I don't think A-B would help.
rnorton
Super Member
Male vocals and some brass, particularly trumpet, are markedly asymmetrical and are the reason that absolute phase is actually important.
robgmn
Super Member
+1
It's not a huge difference, but it's there, which certainly gives rise to the possibility that it's audible.
SoNic67
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's not true. Air pressure from a sound cannot be asymmetrical for long periods. That would equal that the air will move preponderantly in one direction, to create a constant pressure front, like the wind. Recordings will have DC component. Ear drum would stay "pressed in" while listening.