impending lapse of judgement, need advice!

[Bob_in_OKC]

According to the Roger Russell history of McIntosh page, the sensitivity rating for your phono stage is 3 mV, so you'll want to get close to or above that. Let's say for the sake of argument, 2.5 mV or more. Many high-output MC cartridges will get you there. The Eroica H (from your list) is a good example at 2.5 mV and would work nicely with some of tonearms/turntables you have listed. There is a UK site that sells that cartridge for around $313, depending on the current exchange rate.

I just recently changed the cartridge on my Music Hall MMF-5 from a Goldring Eroica H to a Goldring 1042. The 1042 has an output of 6.5 mV and I've been happy with that; but I didn't need the extra output, due to the gain adjustments available on my phono preamp. I would tend to favor the higher output in your case, though, because you don't have the option to add more gain at the preamp. I also tend to in general favor the sound of the 1042 over the Eroica, but it's a close call. I think it probably hits your desired sound characteristics a little more closely, if I understand them correctly. The price I got for the 1042 was about $255 and is still available.

 

[Slowhead]

A few years ago I would say go the bargain/introduction route. Skip it, hidden costs and frustration w/a slim chance of true reward.
Visit the dealers, one comes to mind in your area that went out of their way to help me from a distance.
You have a good price point, that buys solid playback. If your going to run the MAC for your phonostage think about a straight MM cartridge. That is your best chance at hearing the carts. full potential. HOMC only implies MM stage compatible, not always ideal in every system. LOMC, too many variables to get a great match on the first try. Your gear/room acoustics are different than others who give advice about carts. & stages.
I spent a tad more than your budget this spring and couldn't be happier. It was worth the time and effort.

 

[rnxrx]

what did you end up with?

Out of curiosity, what did you end up with?

A few years ago I would say go the bargain/introduction route. Skip it, hidden costs and frustration w/a slim chance of true reward.
Visit the dealers, one comes to mind in your area that went out of their way to help me from a distance.
You have a good price point, that buys solid playback. If your going to run the MAC for your phonostage think about a straight MM cartridge. That is your best chance at hearing the carts. full potential. HOMC only implies MM stage compatible, not always ideal in every system. LOMC, too many variables to get a great match on the first try. Your gear/room acoustics are different than others who give advice about carts. & stages.
I spent a tad more than your budget this spring and couldn't be happier. It was worth the time and effort.

 

[BrocLuno]

The thing with the signal voltage is that 3 mV is minimum to make the phono section happy. The more you feed it, the clearer the signal is above background noise and artifacts from the amp. I would not drive that Mac phono section at less than 4.5 mV. BUT, if I'm not mistaken, there is a switch on your phono stage to accept MC cartridges? If so, anything in the 2 mV range should be good. Less than that, you need an outboard stage next to the TT, and a good one at that. If no switch, I would not try MCs right now.

In moving magnet (MM) or moving iron (MI) you have a good selection of excellent cartridges. With your tastes, I suspect an AT150MLX might be an entry point. There are very nice cartridges from Grado, Ortofon and excellent ones from Clear Audio. There are MM & MI cartridges in the $800~$1000 range. It's not the sole domain of MC. Don't forget to look at SoundSmith. He might just build one for you

Get any table on your list that strikes your fancy. Not a clunker in the list. Then as time goes by and you happen on something else at a garage sale or an estate sale, you can try it out

 

[Slowhead]

Out of curiosity, what did you end up with?

I bought a P5. Take heed in BrocLuno's advice about cartridge matching, it's a deal breaker. He brought up a significant point (stat.) about your MAC stage if you use it. There are more than a few cartridges between $200-$300 that can really perform if they are matched correctly.

 

[melofelo]

if it was my money..and i had that existing equipment...
i'd forget about the cartridge and separate phono stage for now
...any decent $50 budget cartridge will get you going...and leave you the lion share of your budget to spend on the components you least want to upgrade in the near future..

i'd add this lot to my search list of 'Used but Mint condition' turntables..
..in 'roughly' the following order..used prices will vary a bit between A B and C

A

Linn sondek and a linn arm either linn basik, linn akito or better
or
Roksan xerxes
Townshend Elite Rock
B :
Ariston RD90
Systemdek IV
Manticore Mantra
Heybrook TT2
Thorens td 321


C :

Michell syncro
Systemdek IIX or IIXE
AR EB 101
Rotel RP855 or 850
Thorens td 160 IV , td 160V / or td160s with rb 250 arm
Rega Planar 3 with rb 300 arm
technics sl1200 , sl 1210 unmodified,mint condition, non ex dj samples

as you can probably deduce..all but the technics are belt drives...cos i like belt drives..

there are many good direct drive tables too but the technics 1200 1210 series is probably a safer bet given its proven longevity and the aftermarket upgrade options available for armboards and arms etc..

just my tuppence worth..others will chime in with other options...:thmbsp:

post #3 also makes good sense to me if you are not quite ready to jump in at the deep end but want to spend some time getting back into records until you do some more research on available options...
the humble pioneer pl12d with a new belt and tweaks and the standard at95e will do justice to your records that are in decent condition and cost very little from your budget...its also a very nice sounding combination that needs little experience to set up well

 

[DC]

I have been re-reading the posts (good discussions) and re-thinking my original comments.

Given the budget and the mating equipment, my radar is now pointing toward a Technics SL-1200MkII mated with an audio technica AT-150MLX (or anything else in that budget). This combination has been well praised in these forums (synergy seems to be the oft-used descriptor), is available brand new (a preference of the OP), and is not particularly expensive, all things considered. It offers a fuss-and-hassle free entrance (back?) in to vinyl listening with very good sound quality, build quality, reliability, and affordability.

That is going to come in way under budget, for a very good reason. Get thee a record cleaning machine. Along my path of upgrade (it is a sickness ... ) the single biggest sonic improvement I have EVER EVER EVER made to my listening equipment was to clean the damn records. (Next was getting the styli clean after miles and miles of cruddy, or at least questionable, grooves.) I have cleaned hundreds and hundreds of records, using every single method you can think of (except steam), and I am not a proponent of a spray-and-wipe method. My experience suggests strongly that a deep-wash and deep-rinse of the grooves using a fluid bath and vacuum system is highly effective. The VPI 16.5 gets high praise and will fit in the budget nicely.

High quality equipment with good resolution will reveal, with impressive clarity, what is actually in the groove. It behooves the listener with good equipment and a good ear to ensure that music is the only thing down in the groove ...

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

I think if we're going to toss the SL-1200MK2 into the mix, I'd like to offer that it might not be nearly as well suited to the OP's system as the ones already under his consideration.

 

[Mister Pig]

No Reason to Reinvent the Wheel

In the modern analog world a Rega P3 and Dynavector 10X5 is a benchmark of affordable performance. This is a combination that is known to work well together. For many people it has become a stopping point, offering a level of reproduction that is satisfying for the long haul.

Is there better? Sure there is. Also the stock arm can be improved upon. The Incognito or Discovery rewire brings them up a notch in performance.

The 10X5 is a high output moving coil, with 2.5mv of output. This should be enough to drive your Mac. This cart is a bit more expensive than many out there, but it consistently pleases people. Matter of fact, I can't remember any instances of a person saying they hated the plucky little Dyna.

This is just the opinion of a barn yard animal. If you want another one, go talk to the cows. Don't speak with the chickens, as fowl cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[DC]

I think if we're going to toss the SL-1200MK2 into the mix, I'd like to offer that it might not be nearly as well suited to the OP's system as the ones already under his consideration.

I'll concede that my idea of an SL-1200 was shallow. Mr. Pig's above recommendation is spot-on where I should have been thinking ... my bad.

I'll hold on to my strong recommendation to keep an RCM in the mix as it probably will have more positive influence on the listening than any other piece of equipment and it can remain constant.

 

[BrocLuno]

There are direct drive tables (DD) that will meet the OPs needs. Yamaha GT 2000 (or 1000) will certainly do it. I suspect that a JVC QL Y7F will do it too. I know a Sansui 929 will. But these would all be used. Albeit, at this price performance range, I suspect that they would be so well taken care of that it would be hard to imagine abuse or problems.

 

[Mister Pig]

I Think The OP Made His Preference Clear

There are direct drive tables (DD) that will meet the OPs needs. Yamaha GT 2000 (or 1000) will certainly do it. I suspect that a JVC QL Y7F will do it too. I know a Sansui 929 will. But these would all be used. Albeit, at this price performance range, I suspect that they would be so well taken care of that it would be hard to imagine abuse or problems.

1.) My -tendency- would be to buy new. I'm more than comfortable mechanically and electronically, but there's enough specialization in getting these guys set up that it becomes a near certainty that I'll end up in some kind of world of hurt.

There is a whole slew of great tables on Agon for this price point. If used were an option I think one of the Nottinghams would be a great purchase. maybe with some luck a local shop will have a nice pre-owned table as a possibility.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[rnxrx]

hopefully homing in on something decent

I always take audio reviews with a certain grain of salt, but there are a ton of positive comments about Clearaudio's Maestro cartridge. It's MM (good for my MX110) and, if as good as is suggested, should be good for a long time. It seems to sit in the $1K range - which is a lot, but if it's pretty much as good as it gets in that area then I can live with it.

From a deck and arm point of view - if I stuck with the same vendor, I see deals for the Clearaudio Emotion and the Maestro w/the carbon fiber tone arm together for ~$2K. It's above my initial budget, but I can stretch a bit if it really delivers the goods. I can probably also find a Rega P3-24 or (stretching further) a P5 with said cartridge for the same range. The Pro-Ject RM5, Music Hall 5.1 or 7.1 or Thorens 240.

On Audiogon I see some nice looking equipment but, again, am a little concerned about inheriting someone else's mechanical issues - particularly given my lack of experience with the geometry of tone arms and such.

So - here are my now updated questions:

1.) Clearaudio Maestro cartridge - Is there concurrence that this is about as good as it gets with MM's and that my next step goes into exotic MC's and new preamps? Am I buying the hype too much? My hope is to get this part of my rig squared away for a few years to allow me to focus on the whole general preamp problem.

2.) Turntable / Arm Combos in the $1K range (+/-)

a.) Clearaudio Emotion
b.) Pro-Ject RM5
c.) Rega P3 or -possibly- P5
d.) Music Hall 5.1 or 7.1 (again, more likely the former)
e.) Thorens 240
f.) ????

I'm also headed out today to a dealer that apparently stocks some amount of Clearaudio (not sure if he has the low end), Audionote, Michell, Nottingham, Origin and Music Hall as well as cartridges and such from Benz, Dyavector, Grado, etc... With any luck I can do some A/B testing and actually hear if there's that much of a difference to be had vs the difference in $$$.

Thanks again for all the suggestions - this is *incredibly* educational for me (and hopefully some other vinyl newbies as well).

 

[cactuscowboy]

I think if we're going to toss the SL-1200MK2 into the mix, I'd like to offer that it might not be nearly as well suited to the OP's system as the ones already under his consideration.

Why?

What am I missing here?

The original poster wants to buy new. I would recommend a KAB SL-1200 with cardas tonearm rewire, tonearm dampener, and a higher quality MM, MI or high output MC cartridge. Seems an excellent choice to me, and arguably the best value for dollar spent in that budget range.

 

[4dryhme]

Thanks again for all the suggestions - this is *incredibly* educational for me (and hopefully some other vinyl newbies as well).

I'd like to thank you providing feedback as to how this process is developing for you. All to often someone gets some advice as an OP and then they disappear. I'm piggybacking so to speak on your experience, and by taking the time to offer your thoughts it helps gel how I might approach the same question. So, while you're finding it educational, rest assured others are as well.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

Why?

What am I missing here?

The original poster wants to buy new. I would recommend a KAB SL-1200 with cardas tonearm rewire, tonearm dampener, and a higher quality MM, MI or high output MC cartridge. Seems an excellent choice to me, and arguably the best value for dollar spent in that budget range.

Because I think I can relate to what kind of sound the OP is finding pleasing with the gear he has and goals he describes. The SL-1200's and the AT cartridges have a different sound to them that I don't think goes with the OP's stated goals of sweet midrange and airy highs. Just my attempt to aim where I understand his aim to be.

So - here are my now updated questions:

1.) Clearaudio Maestro cartridge - Is there concurrence that this is about as good as it gets with MM's and that my next step goes into exotic MC's and new preamps? Am I buying the hype too much? My hope is to get this part of my rig squared away for a few years to allow me to focus on the whole general preamp problem.

2.) Turntable / Arm Combos in the $1K range (+/-)

a.) Clearaudio Emotion
b.) Pro-Ject RM5
c.) Rega P3 or -possibly- P5
d.) Music Hall 5.1 or 7.1 (again, more likely the former)
e.) Thorens 240
f.) ????

Although the Clearaudio MM cartridges are high-priced, I don't know that they could be established as best. Clearaudio has a rep for an analytical, precise sound that you might find good and might not. Some people might even suggest pairing them with a warm system, although I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory of balancing a warm system with a component that leans the other way. With the old McIntosh gear, it seems a little funny to me to pair it up with Clearaudio gear...but that's just me, I suppose. Despite being a bit of a Goldring fan, I hope I'm being objective in saying I'd recommend considering the 1042. It's most likely going to lean more toward the vintage sound you've got going.

With the turntable, I suppose if you go with the Clearaudio Emotion, it makes some sense to put a Clearaudio cartridge on it. This also reminds me that the VPI Scout would be a nice option if you want to increase your budget to the Emotion's level. There are many times where I feel like the Pro-Ject and Music Hall turntables are the thing to recommend and many times they aren't. They're not for everyone, but I definitely think they're worth a listen. These turntables and the upper end of the Goldring cartridges, matched up with tube gear, are going to get the midrange right, I can at least tell you that much.

As an aside, in case it matters to you...the Thorens TD240 is apparently a re-badge based on this Dual, but I'm not too up to speed on that topic. To some people it's an issue.

 

[BrocLuno]

I think the Clear Audio Maestro cartridge has a very well deserved reputation. It is top of the line MM. On the table side it will have to be what you feel comfortable with as a dealer interface. For a while, you'll be loooking for support.

The KAB 1200 with mods will also be new. A very fine machine too. But may not be the best match to the Maestro? A Soundsmith cartridge like the Ebony or the Voice might be in the running. And they might pair one with a table too. Would not hurt to call them and discuss?

 

[rnxrx]

Update: the madness impending

Hi, Folks-
Thanks again for the great comments and suggestions. After listening to a number of different permutations of turntable, arm and cartridges and the current package offering from Clearaudio that includes the Emotion turntable, the carbon fiber arm and the Maestro cartridge. The compelling point was that there's some kind of factory bundle option in play that seemed as if it would cut $1K or more off of other units in the same overall class.

I was very encouraged that I could tell a distinct difference between the aluminum and carbon fiber tone arms - the Al option seemed to subtly roll off some of the high end, while the carbon fiber seemed to relate a more balanced, airy impression.

Bear in mind that this is all in the context of the showroom. The speakers were identical to those in my own system and the integrated amp was quite close as well. A phono stage preamp was added, of course, but in general I was pleased with the close similarity to my own system (or at least one of them).

Now...the downside. The Clearaudio package appears to be back-ordered, which puts me officially into week three waiting for not only the turntable but also the wall mount kit. In the mean time I've taken the opportunity to re-tube my MX110 - which has otherwise massively reduced noise and improved tone for line-level input (and fixed the FM stereo along the way). I've also spent way more on vinyl than I care to admit - but I guess that's par for the course.

Anyhow, when I finally get the unit (which had better be shortly, or I'll cancel the order and buy it online) I'll post my thoughts on how well the MX110 is doing and the overall impression of SACD's through a DAC vs vinyl on a decent deck.

thanks again-

 

[BrocLuno]

Hang in there. At that level, having walk in dealer support is not something to sneeze at

 

[specialidiot]

I'm loving my upstairs setup

Pro-Ject RM5-SE
Dynavector 10x5 cartridge
Bellari VP-130 phono stage
VPI 16.5 RCM

All but the cartridge I bought very gently used and I'm sure I don't have $1500 in it.

Don't get into vinyl without a decent RCM