(in my best Neo voice) "There is no debate"

CraigVMN

Super Member
The one. One debate responsible for more bad blood than a zombie apocalypse. "Is there a difference"?

Cables, amplifiers, wire, power cords...getting that feeling in the pit of your gut yet?

In my 40+ years of experience exploring this unwieldy beast known as Audio I have come to the conclusion that - Some people are able to discern the difference, and some are not. Some peoples brains are just tuned, or "wired" differently. No, that doesn't mean some people have superior sensory abilities, but how their brain interprets and analyses input.

Case in point - some 6 years ago I worked with a guy who was half my age. We both shared a love of music, and despite our age difference, our tastes mostly aligned. He was a metal head, and enamored with Metallica enough that he took up guitar, so he could play the tunes that inspired him. He was into music. So, as we sat for hours at a time shuffling paperwork, we listened to tunes playing back on my portable device, with a Y-splitter to each of our own headphones.

Perchance the Edgar Winter song "Frankenstein" had finished playing and I commented on the interplay between the two drum sets in the middle of the song. "What do you mean" he asked. "The two different sets of drums"! I exclaimed. Indeed, the working title of the song was Double Drum Solo as Edgar and his drummer traded off beats on two different kits during the recording. Skipping back to that part of the song, I played it for him again, and he said he could not detect any tonality differences. (If you're unfamiliar with the piece, stream it or pay the $1.50 to buy it - great song). I even let him listen through my headphones to remove the possibility of it being his set, and still he heard no difference.

Self taught, he could play guitar right along note for note with no sheet music or tabs to the songs he knew, but could not detect the tonal differences that were to me so glaringly obvious. Yes, I hear differences between wire, cable, AC cords...and I also believe there is NO need to spend the same amount of money it would take to buy a nice car (or house) to get good audio. Measurements? Double blind tests? Chuck'em out the window. You know when you can hear a difference, and that's all that counts.

What actually keeps the debate alive is each camps belief it is their purpose in life to convince the other side they're wrong. And just like Democrats vs. Republicans - ain't gonna happen. So, if this thread is given an opportunity to live, don't feel the need to gather your pitchforks and torches, just accept each side for what it is, and live and let listen.
 
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Gotta admit, never really considered two drum sets on "Frankenstein" but seeing it performed live, it makes sense.

I'm troubled with nearly perfect pitch. If I hear any belt drag on a tt, or cassette, it kills the mood. Or hey, maybe the local FM station tries speeding the song up just a hair, hoping you won't notice. Even with the digital ability to keep pitch the same and STILL speed it up, I hear the pitch AND the tempo difference.

I'm also a musician. I think we, as a rule, hear things differently.

I've never heard much change between wire, cables or interconnects. Notice I say "much". This is above and beyond a faulty wire or cable.

I think you're on to something with this theory, tho.
 
Gotta admit, never really considered two drum sets on "Frankenstein" but seeing it performed live, it makes sense.

I'm troubled with nearly perfect pitch. If I hear any belt drag on a tt, or cassette, it kills the mood. Or hey, maybe the local FM station tries speeding the song up just a hair, hoping you won't notice. Even with the digital ability to keep pitch the same and STILL speed it up, I hear the pitch AND the tempo difference.

I'm also a musician. I think we, as a rule, hear things differently.

I've never heard much change between wire, cables or interconnects. Notice I say "much". This is above and beyond a faulty wire or cable.

I think you're on to something with this theory, tho.

I have the same issue. Any pitch variations drive me nuts. I don't know that you'd call me a musician but I do play the guitar and bass and have done a lot of listening so have a pretty good ear.
As far as hearing (or not hearing) differences between wires and cords and little wood blocks stood near your gear. I figure some people have great ears, some people have great imaginations and some have neither.
 
Some people are able to discern the difference, and some are not. Some peoples brains are just tuned, or "wired" differently. No, that doesn't mean some people have superior sensory abilities, but how their brain interprets and analyses input.

I have first hand experience with this having taught an Aural Recognition (Critical Listening) course to 2500+ students.

And through studies at JHU Applied Physics Lab many actually do have “superior sensory abilities”. But you would be surprised at the number of people that hear great (determined with testing) but really cannot hear.
 
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Some people listen for sounds and others for music. Live music is very 3D a solo live guitar is 3D the guitar creates it`s own soundstage. Having the right tools at home, cables, amps, pre-amps in the right combinations can allow one to experience this to great extent.

Most when comparing lets say speaker cables are listening for differences, well a guitar sounds like a guitar whether your using zip cord or 1k speaker cable? Beyond recognizing the guitar is the zip cord bringing the "it" factor, the 3D, depth and soul of the instrument? Can you tell what amps are being used or a Fender from a Gibson guitar? IC`s or speaker cable can bring this realism and they are proper tools to use in a system that can take advantage of what they can do. People looking for differences will only hear whether a cable is brighter, less bright or to tune the defects in their system, i do not look for any of this i look for realism and if found everything else is taken care of if the system can take advantage of the cables.
 
The OP opened with 3 of 4 variables . At least 3 are often argued. The amps at least not as much.
For sake of saving a bunch of time.
There won't be consensus.
I applaud the civil opening.
 
The OP opened with 3 of 4 variables . At least 3 are often argued. The amps at least not as much.
For sake of saving a bunch of time.
There won't be consensus.
I applaud the civil opening.

The consensus should be members of each camp accepting the other for what it is knowing minds will not be changed, and not chiming in to champion their side, which invariably descends into an internet pi$$ing match, which would be missing the point. The truth is, I wish I didn't have such a critical ear and could be satisfied with just some average (read - inexpensive) gear. But, I also don't go overboard in absolute terms of dollars spent because I know there's a point of diminishing returns.
 
Last fall our oldest daughter came home for a surprise visit to inform her Mom and I of her upcoming wedding and move to Germany. She is a music fan and I set her up with a not bad stereo a few years back. It was a listening day for me so I asked her if she had anything on her phone she wanted to hear through my main setup. One of the songs she chose was Sweet Home Alabama so I tried an experiment. I put my nice vinyl copy on and synked it up with her copy on the phone (the phone sounded like **** to me) and a/b'd them and my darling daughter could not tell the difference, that was night and day to me. That's when I really knew that people hear things differently.
 
Like I said before in another topic, not all people hear or interpret what they hear the same its just facts. Its your own experience and no one else can experience it for you.
 
The consensus should be members of each camp accepting the other for what it is knowing minds will not be changed, and not chiming in to champion their side, which invariably descends into an internet pi$$ing match, which would be missing the point. The truth is, I wish I didn't have such a critical ear and could be satisfied with just some average (read - inexpensive) gear. But, I also don't go overboard in absolute terms of dollars spent because I know there's a point of diminishing returns.
I agree with this. What i hear and value is most likely going to be different from someone else making it neither right or wrong on both sides.
 
Not everyone has the same perceptial/hearing biological system.

People choose to listen to different things when we listen to music. Some people like to follow the individual instruments following the lines and arrangements and interplay of the counterpoint and production, etc. Other people just want to follow the words and everything else doesn't really matter.

And more sophisticated/detailed listening is something which is learned. Just as it takes time for the beginner musician to be aware of and recognize chord progressions that the professional musician can do instantly and takes for granted, learning how to listen to music takes time. It starts with "this sounds better than that", and then progresses to identify why one sounds different.
 
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