Is there always a base level of noise from records?

neevo

neevo

Super Member
I have a modest setup and want to make sure it’s optimised at much as possible. It sounds brilliant and I have a question about noise I hear in dead wax.

It’s a whooshing sound, constant as the stylus rides the groove. Noticeable when playing at loud volume but at modest levels not.

Wondering if this is an inherent sound with the format or something I could be able to tune out?

Pioneer PL-518 fully refurbished
Ortofon 2M Bronze properly setup Baerwald
Little Bear T10 Preamp
Records are ultrasonically cleaned and wet cleaned and vacuumed. Mix of record quality but sound is there on old and brand new alike.

I tried playing with VTF but it didn’t affect it. I’m not sure if it’s the groove making the sound or maybe some noise through the platter but I’d be keen to hear from others if they have a completely silent TT.
 
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There could be a lot of reasons for that kind of noise -- anything from the vinyl itself to the way the cartridge and the tonearm interact. There are such things as real-time noise filters. I'm not recommending that you get one, however.
 
It's simply the friction sound of the stone being dragged along the groove being amplified. All vinyl front ends, regardless of price are limited by this inherent noise floor. An unmodulated perfect groove will always generate that sound.

Unless you want to go down a real-time DSP processing path it's not going to go away. Obviously, some records, styli and front end combinations can help with minimizing this.
 
restorer-john said:
It's simply the friction sound of the stone being dragged along the groove being amplified. All vinyl front ends, regardless of price are limited by this inherent noise floor. An unmodulated perfect groove will always generate that sound.

Unless you want to go down a real-time DSP processing path it's not going to go away. Obviously, some records, styli and front end combinations can help with minimizing this.
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Thank god! I can stop chasing a dragon then.
 
You've probably already checked, but do you get noise thru the speakers with TT running but tonearm cued up?

If so, noise from motor or platter bearing, or from amplification chain may be contributing to the inherent noise of the playback process, as described by restorerjohn, above.
 
Only real exception I'm aware of is a DBX encoded disk. Those are compressed during mastering to get rid of noise, but require a special decoder to play back. I got one and they're freakin' spectacular.

dbx-snr1.jpg


BTW - the SNR-1 below the decoder is also killer for dropping the noise floor on normal recordings. It was originally developed for cassette noise, but works well with vinyl too. The SNR-1 cancels out steady state (most of the type of noise you're talking about). It's not a pop and click filter, and you want to stay conservative with the settings so it doesn't filter anything important, but I love the thing.

Both out of production decades ago, but you can usually find one on that auction site if you're patient.
 
neevo said:
I have a question about noise I hear in dead wax.
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Are you talking about the end of the record in the lead out groove?

restorer-john said:
All vinyl front ends, regardless of price are limited by this inherent noise floor.
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:bs:

My system doesn't go whoosh, and sounds very quiet unless it's a crappy record. Now the staging for any phono has more inherent noise, but that noise should be far below the music levels.

I have records when you cue them you start checking if you selected phono and if your volume is up because they are so quiet.
 
neevo said:
I have a modest setup and want to make sure it’s optimised at much as possible. It sounds brilliant and I have a question about noise I hear in dead wax.

It’s a whooshing sound, constant as the stylus rides the groove. Noticeable when playing at loud volume but at modest levels not.

Wondering if this is an inherent sound with the format or something I could be able to tune out?

Pioneer PL-518 fully refurbished
Ortofon 2M Bronze properly setup Baerwald
Little Bear T10 Preamp
Records are ultrasonically cleaned and wet cleaned and vacuumed. Mix of record quality but sound is there on old and brand new alike.

I tried playing with VTF but it didn’t affect it. I’m not sure if it’s the groove making the sound or maybe some noise through the platter but I’d be keen to hear from others if they have a completely silent TT.
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I consider this type of noise one of the main problems with vinyl playback. Some comes from the records itself, some comes from vibrations at cartridge, some comes from which type of needle is used. Some very good TTs/arms/cartridges manage to keep the noise at a very low level, many don´t.
 
neevo said:
It’s a whooshing sound, constant as the stylus rides the groove. Noticeable when playing at loud volume but at modest levels not.
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Ok this answers my question, no I don't hear much surface noise in my system. You should not be hearing a whooshing noise during the record playing music. Quiet passages should also be quiet as well.

neevo not all records, tables and cartridges are equal. Learning to shop for records is important to sound quality. Having a cartridge that brings out every bit of detail but not amplifying surface imperfections is important. The Ortofon 2M Bronze carts are known to be noisy along with the red & blue. This would be the first thing I would change if I where you.
 
No @restorer-john has it right, it is what friction sounds like, caused by a diamond dragging thru a groove. I have never not heard it, on any playback system I have ever heard. I find the least objectional systems are those with very light VFT, mainly those good high compliance setups. A good majority of the time you won't hear it because it is at such a low level that the music will drown it out. So most people only hear it during the lead in track and the end runout, but it is there all thru the entire LP. Of course it is most noticeable when you have the volume up high and during quiet passages. It is simply part of the physics of vinyl playback. These old sources have their drawbacks, like with tape, you have the high end hiss. I never have heard a tape system that I can't hear it on. And don't give me the Dolby cures it, not to my ears, all it does is lessen it at the expense of losing some of the best parts of the upper end frequencies.
 
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Good vinyl, a good TT and phono front end can be spectacular, but the simple facts are the S/N isn't there.

The noise floor is the diamond moving in the groove and the electrical gain you place after it plus the self generation noise and residual noise. I have phono stages with S/N above 90dB on MM, but it doesn't matter- you are placing an electromagnetic transducer on a moving surface and everything after that is doing it's job.

The limiting factor has been and always will be the noise floor with vinyl. There is no escaping it and no amount of money can change those facts.

Doesn't mean we can't enjoy it for what it is and do the best we can to minimize the issues.
 
Usually its pretty steady, it becomes more of whooshing sound on slight warps. That is because as the stylus is riding up the incline on a wrapped record, the tracking force actually is increased, (because it is going up a hill) increasing the friction, then on the down slide of the wrap there is less friction so it becomes less noticeable.
 
I found that when I started using V-15's with MR stylus and 881 Stantons that the surface noise really dropped, My current Dynavector 20 X 2. HO is very quiet in that respect and is one reason I love it so much. It has a very smooth frequency response with out any high end over emphasis helps, too. Its also free from groove noise when LP's are warped that has been a common issue for me. I have owned 3 records where the center whole was off center, and unfortunately even though the V-15 and 981 were quiet there was nothing I could do bout the sickening wow.
 
Ken Boyd said:
These old sources have their drawbacks, like with tape, you have the high end hiss. I never have heard a tape system that I can't hear it on.
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Same here. In the 80s we got tape hiss down to extremely low levels and then along came digital- with zero hiss and re-scaled our expectations. It kind of ruined things in some ways and made everything better in other ways.

I think if the OP is hearing the vinyl friction noise, that means his vinyl is in great condition and isn't being drowned out with other noises. Once you get quiet vinyl and a decent front end, the little things stand out.
 
But neevo is saying he hears whooshing all through the music, there is nothing correct about that. And again the quality of components and vinyl will leave you listening to noise or music, we have a choice.
 
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