Low-end of high-end vs. high-end of low-end

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WaveSeeker

New Member
How do the better models of low/mid-tier component lines fare against the lesser models of high-end lines?

For example, Sony ES, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha, etc. separates or TOTL integrated amps, against Accuphase E-2xx or Alpine-era Luxman LV-1xx integrateds. Or substitute any American/European examples.

Halo/statement products like Sony Esprit or R1, Pioneer Exclusive, Denon S1, etc. wouldn't count since these are competing head-to-head with the high-end lines.

The risk with the low-end models of high-end brands is that you're paying for a name and a sleek chassis, but the secret sauce that made the name isn't found inside. On the other hand, the high-end models of low-end brands might be subject to the exact same cost cutting as their low-end counterparts.

Of course there's no universal answer...maybe there's a trend though.

This thread was posted before along similar lines, but it didn't seem to end up going much further than the obviously different market segments they're aiming for.
 
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I'd think one thing that the high-end-of-low-end brands had going for them is that they can test the cost of compromises in their mainstream line.

A hypothetical: say they're considering using a contract manufacturer (or a different part supplier, or a weird amp topology) to save a few thousand yen per unit.

Sony or Pioneer can roll out the adjustment on a low-end mainstream product, and check how they pass QA, how the market accepts them, what sort of RMA rates you get, etc. before risking even the low end Elite or ES models.

Luxman or Accuphase doesn't have that option. The first line for any experimental corner cutting is going to be the low-end of their product line.
 
Techs are discussing internal parts many times.

For example, there are the STK voltage amps which often fail, they are used in BOTL Sansui (A1000) amps. You pickup the "plasticky amp" and it torques already.

It is also used in Philips, Marantz (PM80), Grundig, and such.

Really inferior, according to some.

However,

it is also used in Accuphase E203

In that case, it suddenly is no problem, anymore :D
 
gslikker said:
Techs are discussing internal parts many times.

For example, there are the STK voltage amps which often fail, they are used in BOTL Sansui (A1000) amps. You pickup the "plasticky amp" and it torques already.

It is also used in Philips, Marantz (PM80), Grundig, and such.

Really inferior, according to some.

However,

it is also used in Accuphase E203

In that case, it suddenly is no problem, anymore :D
Click to expand...

And in my case, while I like many things about Accuphase, their corporate policy and attitude about service and service information means, I refuse to buy one. And with that E 203 using the STK, it just means it holds it's value well enough to justify hunting down the part. Accuphase also will not even service a unit bought in another country, even as an out of warranty item. This is the kind of company I don't want to do business with.
 
WaveSeeker said:
For example, Sony ES, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha, etc. separates or TOTL integrated amps, against Accuphase E-2xx or Alpine-era Luxman LV-1xx integrateds. Or substitute any American/European examples.

Halo/statement products like Sony Esprit or R1, Pioneer Exclusive, Denon S1, etc. wouldn't count since these are competing head-to-head with the high-end lines.
Click to expand...

Pioneer Elite M series separates were TOTL amps back in the 1980s. They were not lesser amplifiers. Pioneer Elite amplifiers in test back in the 1980s in japanese Stereo sound magazine got better Reviews than sansui b2201, sansui b2301l, Macintosh, accuphase p300l or even tube amps like luxman mq360. You mentioned Pioneer exclusive, Elite wasnt bad even in comparison with exclusive Line.

Moreover Pioneer Elite separates had very good built quality. Inside you can find ucon polypropylene caps, soshin film capacitors, nichicon Muse caps all parts seen in accuphase, Denon or sansui amplifiers.

Moreover in 1988 Pioneer Elite c90a/M90a in japanese Stereo sound magazine, got Best product distinction made for Best high class components


So i dont agree with statement that Pioneer was lesser brand. But of course anyone can like something else

http://audiosharing.com/review/?cat=35

http://audiosharing.com/review/?cat=35&paged=2
 
SoCal Sam said:
Tell us what you think the "secret sauce" is. Could it be that branding and market position sway your perception? Not me. If I like the sound, it does not matter who made it or what it cost.
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If you owned an Accuphase product, and bought it while you lived or worked overseas, you'd be upset if you had to ship it overseas to get any repairs done. That's even out of warranty repairs. If Accuphase would at least repair an out of warranty unit for standard prices, I'd be more favorable about that brand. I like their gear, but I sure don't want to own it. For those reasons. Warranty I can understand sending it back to the service depot in the country where it was bought new. YMMV. Other companies make great sounding, reliable gear, who don't have an attitude about servicing it.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
If you owned an Accuphase product, and bought it while you lived or worked overseas, you'd be upset if you had to ship it overseas to get any repairs done. That's even out of warranty repairs. If Accuphase would at least repair an out of warranty unit for standard prices, I'd be more favorable about that brand. I like their gear, but I sure don't want to own it. For those reasons. Warranty I can understand sending it back to the service depot in the country where it was bought new. YMMV. Other companies make great sounding, reliable gear, who don't have an attitude about servicing it.
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No doubt service speaks volumes (pun intended) of the manufacturer and makes access to the high end easier and more satisfying. Excellent service is IMO closely related to psycho-acoustics. This is the secret to longevity for McIntosh and Bryston is service. Call them up and they answer the phone. Bryston's 20 year warranty almost guarantees the owner will keep the amp for 20 years. Of course, the gear has to be very well made to go the distance. Pride of ownership and the belief that the owner made the right choice adds immeasurably to satisfaction which IMO is a key component of psycho-acoustics.
 
All the sound quality in the world does nothing for me if the equipment is always giving problems or failing outright. Example: Counterpoint. I also want equipment that sounds like music, detailed enough without excess, reliable as I can find. I want something which I don't have to buy 10 times over (as on my income I have to buy right, and buy right to enjoy for many years). Rollo the rich kid can afford temperamental equipment, I can not do so.
 
Not sure if there'd be a definite difference overall. The line in the sand would be pretty thin... depending.

I'd hope that the "lesser models of the upper high-end lines might have better quality components in them, with fewer "bells and whistles" than the higher ones, oft times not used.

It may come down to the philosophy of the company and their take on builds. Take for instance the newer Yamaha line of A/V receivers. You could go with the reg series and obtain a more optioned lower-series unit, or go into an entry model higher-series ("Aventage") which offers twice the warranty than did the lower-range series. I decided to go with the entry-level upper model, and have been running it for the better part of five years, with nary a problem with daily use. I drive it hard most times.

So, I believe a quality build company like SONY, with a higher quality control set up; the differences are not as great. IMHO


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