Lyra Delos vs Denon 103

Yamahaha

Yamahaha

Well-Known Member
and begin!

Seriously, I want to know. I sometimes wonder is that 103 just should be the only cart I use since it gets me 90% there compared to any money I've spent otherwise and ... well, if the cat takes a swipe, another is available cheap and easy, they all sound the same and ... well again I stress - CHEAP.

But of course sometimes I am an audiofool and I want more. I go in a circle and sometime things work, often times not. For instance, Nagaoka MP500. Tell me that MM doesnt best pretty much any moving coil in speed and tightness. A little sterile perhaps. But I digress and I did ask for opinions, mike off, ears on .....
 
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Hi, Firstly, You do not tell us what arm you are using?
If you have an arm that plays the 103, that arm would never play a Nagaoka MP500. As the two cartridges are at either end of the cartridge/arm matching ratios. The Denon needing a Medium/Heavy, the MP500 needed a very light weight arm.

As for your question, is it worth stashing out for the Delos, well there are other ways that you can get 98% or more of the way there for a lot less money.
- Upgrade the body the an Aluminium one - $50 to $80 + a steady hand.
- Upgrade the Denon stylus & cantilever - $260 to $550.
- Buy a S/H 103D, upgrade the body, cant/stylus - under $1200. You will have a cartridge that will wipe the floor of the Delos.

However another solution would be to upgrade your arm, the arm is the most important factor in the vinyl circle. A cheap cartridge on a quality arm will always sound better than a great cartridge on an arm normally bought with a T/T. There are several arms available that can perform better than a SME V for under $1000 S/H.

So just conjecture but you 103 on a excellent arm would most likely perform better than a Delos on your current arm.

Lastly there are a few MM cartridges that can go toe to toe with a good MC, some of them cost some mighty dollars due to their reputation, But the Denon 107 & 109 MM cartridges are giant killers & can be picked up S/H for around $250 to $450.

Cheers & Keep Safe
 
See, these "what arm, what table", all this goes nowhere. Assume its a match and then discuss sound. Lets not get into every single variable.

My current table is Technics 1200G. If you haven't already, google Fremers notes on this. I dont particularly like Fremer but his comments are the arm on his review are spot on. The Denon 103 works beautifully. Most would say it cannot, but it does.

Of course, my Nagaoka MP500 wipes the floor with many moving coil. We all know these days plenty of brands are pure hype. As are the "apples and oranges" commentaries. Nope. Good sound is good sound. Either a cartridge does its job and pulls the recording, or it does not, or it colors it. To discuss colors is one of the things about audiophile conversations I cannot stand. Just saying, not pointing at anyone in particular. I often hope to not have another thread where one or two products are mentions and 3 pages later 1001 products are being discussed along with cables that are a "must". This is why we dont see more ladies around here.
 
Hi, Well you may not like this, but until you can find out, (I can't find it) or measure the effective mass of your arm. You would be truly shooting in the dark with a Dellos. It also has a Namiki microridge line-contact nude diamond stylus. So you would need to be able to adjust the stylus SRA to get best performance.

It is like lots of young people do. They shoe horn a big motor into a car ( cartridge) do nothing with the suspension (Tonearm) & wonder why they don't get the performance they expect. But the simple fact is a better engine requires better suspension.

Cheers
 
Let put it this way, If you had $2000 to spend, your best performance would come from a $1500 arm/$500 cart. A cart cannot do it's job (pulling information of of vinyl) unless the arm lets it.

When you get into high end cartridges, think of them as racing cars. Setting up the cartridge (or racing car) is absolutely is paramount to getting the best performance.

When I change out my Accuphase AC-2, (try another cart,) & then put it back in. It takes me a 5 to 6 hours to set it up correctly again. Allowing it to gain the maximum information from the vinyl. Some people even employ a professional to do this!!

The Denon is a super sounding cartridge & brilliant bargain, (should cost at least twice the price). It's big advantage is that it uses a Conical stylus, because the stylus shape is Conical you can throw it on virtually any arm & get reasonable performance.
You cannot do that with high end cartridges, unless you are willing to compromise the performance. But then it makes no sense in spending the money.

Cheers
 
Having owned several different flavors and customized DL-103’s. As well as a few Lyra’s. With an Arm that can run all these carts without issue, with time and adjustment. I will simply state that I no longer own any of my Denons and still own 2 Lyras. When the arm can bring out the full capacity and capability of the Carts in question. The Lyra rises higher up in every measurable and discernible category. The Denon is a good Cart that with modifications can be made exceptionally better. The Lyra carts are simply exceptional from the start.
 
tabarddn51 said:
Hi, Well you may not like this, but until you can find out, (I can't find it) or measure the effective mass of your arm. You would be truly shooting in the dark with a Dellos. It also has a Namiki microridge line-contact nude diamond stylus. So you would need to be able to adjust the stylus SRA to get best performance.

It is like lots of young people do. They shoe horn a big motor into a car ( cartridge) do nothing with the suspension (Tonearm) & wonder why they don't get the performance they expect. But the simple fact is a better engine requires better suspension.

Cheers
Click to expand...

See this is what I meant. You assume I'm a young tool. I KNOW the mass of my arm. I know all about cart matching. I'm 50 years old. I just didnt want to have that parrot discussion which is why I said "assume all that other stuff equal, arm matched etc".
I said that so it didn't turn into this. These forums don't have to be the same conversation every time do they? This isnt Rocky Mountain seminar its a friendly cart thread. We can all dig up mass calculations via google search should anyone wish to. No need to parrot here.
 
Sound Dragon said:
Having owned several different flavors and customized DL-103’s. As well as a few Lyra’s. With an Arm that can run all these carts without issue, with time and adjustment. I will simply state that I no longer own any of my Denons and still own 2 Lyras. When the arm can bring out the full capacity and capability of the Carts in question. The Lyra rises higher up in every measurable and discernible category. The Denon is a good Cart that with modifications can be made exceptionally better. The Lyra carts are simply exceptional from the start.
Click to expand...

Now this is some good walnut meat. Thank you.
 
tnsilver said:
that's the problem with assumptions. it turns out you're not young.
Click to expand...

Sweet of you. Productive too. Well, Sound Dragon posted good info in a nutshell so this thread isnt a total waste. Have a nice day tnsilver. Your "wisdom" leaves much to be desired as does your wit. But I wish you well anyway. If you want to feel you won, please, enjoy. I dont need a win.
 
Personally, I consider the nomenclature being used on all Lyra cartridges an achievement in itself -Delos(Δήλος), Helikon(Ελικών), Argos(Άργος) etc-.
They resonate so well with my inner, deeper chords, that I'm humbled.
So, my opinion can hardly be an unbiased one to be of any subjective value.

Having said all that, the Denon is arguably a classic by all accounts and well worth its price.
Whether it'll please you more than a Delos, remains an entirely subjective/personal matter.
One that has to do with your own personal preference and appreciation of various different attributes.
 
Hi Yamahaha, Yes you are young to me, wish I was 50 again, with the knowledge I have about vinyls systems now (how time fly's)
Buy by the way for my future reference, what is the Eff Mass of the Technics arm.

Cheers & Keep Safe
 
Yamahaha said:
Sweet of you. Productive too
Click to expand...
Nope, just cynical. It sounds like your idea of a "productive" discussion is yakking about how "airy", "bright", "dark", "strident", "harsh", or "revealing" a cart might sound to different owners with emphasis on where you think the "stage" imaging might be, while your criteria for quantifying how it compares to other carts is the famous "wipes the floor with" scale. That's all plain good ol' audiogoof bullshit!

As far as that analog planet Fremer review on the 1200G arm goes, he had used a Japanese 12cu@100Hz Lyra Etna SL cart for reference. His prelude seems to address high compliance cart owners wondering about the compatibility of the SL-1200G. His concluding statement is "yes, you can use the SL-1200G with your favorite low-medium compliance moving coil cartridges" and that has nothing to do with high compliance, nor with low compliance carts. It's just a plain stupid worthless paragraph that says absolutely nothing about it's prelude statement but sound all classy and authoritative. That's the Fremer way of doing it, and unfortunately - it works more times than not. The Lyra is 2.4 times more compliant than the Denon DL-103, so if that's where you derive the apparant sense of euphoria with the DL-103 performance on the 1200G arm - you both couldn't be more wrong.

I happen to know first hand and for a long time how the DL-103 sounds with the old Technics 12.5g effective mass tonearm and how it performs with other, more compatible, 19g, 20g and 24g eff. mass tonearms. It's worlds apart. Just like that Fremer key board magic that is always appealing to the ignorant and unsuspecting (and by god never offends the advertisers), the DL-103 has this same sort of magic of it's own. It never sounds bad! In contrast to that famous charlatan's m.o, that's not a bad thing at all. I do actually believe the authenticity of your impression, but while you think it works "beautifully" on the Technics tonearm - I'm guarantying you this: You have no clue what it was designed to sound like.

Over the years this very issue with the 103 had thought me how to tell the tire kickers from the mechanics and nine years of separating fact from fiction on AK had got me realizing that whoever says their Nagaoka MP500 wipes the floor with many moving coil carts - is really not familiar with that many moving coil carts.

There's no wonder in my mind why you'd rather not get into every single variable. I don't think you understand half of them and you're just pissed off that hard core physics and elaborate math had managed to infiltrate a hobby once perceived as only requiring a pair of ears with little regards to what's in between them. Well buddy - tough luck! If you're only 50 y/o, you weren't as smart as you think you are back in the vinyl heyday of the 70's and you sure got some catching up to do so I suggest get started now b/c there's lot's of it.
 
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