MC501 or Krell FPB400CX with the BW 803D?

pabrognara

pabrognara

ΨThe Pneumatic Metal GodΨ
Hello Folks,

I have the 803D´s and, last weekend i´ve auditioned KCT+FPB400CX combo. It was a nice hearing indeed. To me it was very natural, smooth, a little bit detailed, but with strong bass, and punchy, that i didnt hear before. We put the XRCD of FIM SUPERSOUND, and playing the "Drumms" track, we got crazy with the bass and macrodynamic exploding in the walls of the almost 50m2 room.

Being a hardrocker, and metaller fan, ive apreciated the lot of bass provide from 803D and 400CX. BUT as i have also the chance to go with MC501, and seeing a lot of users satisfied with BW+Mac gear, i would like to hear the opinions of this mac model, AND if it can produce the SAME bass of the Krell 400CX.

Thanks in advance.

Pedro
 
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pabrognara said:
Hello Folks,

I have the 803D´s and, last weekend i´ve auditioned KCT+FPB400CX combo. It was a nice hearing indeed. To me it was very natural, smooth, a little bit detailed, but with strong bass, and punchy, that i didnt hear before. We put the XRCD of FIM SUPERSOUND, and playing the "Drumms" track, we got crazy with the bass and macrodynamic exploding in the walls of the almost 50m2 room.

Being a hardrocker, and metaller fan, ive apreciated the lot of bass provide from 803D and 400CX. BUT as i have also the chance to go with MC501, and seeing a lot of users satisfied with BW+Mac gear, i would like to hear the opinions of this mac model, AND if it can produce the SAME bass of the Krell 400CX.

Thanks in advance.

Pedro
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I don't think the Mac's are going to give you the same bass as the Krell, but one thing's for sure, you'll have the best detail one can get with McIntosh
 
You are not going to get the same "slam" down low from the 501's, they have a more "musical" bass with lots of definition and delineation of each note, equal amount of leading and trailing edge transient info, while Krell in general tends to emphasize the leading edge of the transients thus more perceived "slam". Being into hard rock and metal as you say you are into, the Krell would be a better fit, the 501s are just a bit smoother all around. Long term listening, the 501s are "do it all amps", the Krell would be better for "top notch recordings" as listening fatigue does take it's toll, especially in poorly matched systems. The 803D and Krell would not be a bad pairing in my opinion due to the refined diamond tweeter of the B&W "D" series speakers.
 
I almost brought a ML over MC352, but I find that MAC amps are more musical. Makes you want to tap your feel.
 
I have a few pair of 501s and I recently picked up a pair of Krell FPB750MCX monos. I would imagine the 400 sounds very similar, but just does not have the immense power of the 750s. I should note that a pair of 750s retailed for about $30k. With that said, in the ideal setup with a quality recording, the Krells absolutely embarass the 501s. Since I've heard 1201s on the same setup, the Krells blow those out of the water too and have considerably more power on tap.
The Krells have absolutely unbelievable detail and resolution. They have brought to the surface things that I have not heard in recordings that I have listened to many times before. The bass is incredibly dynamic and controlled. These amps offer the best speed and driver control that I have heard with any amplifier to date. By comparison, the 501s/1201s are far more relaxed. McIntosh is not known as a high resolution/detail amplifier so when compared directly to such a revealing amp like the Krell it becomes very noticeable that they lack in this area. The 501s have a warmer midrange with an overall smoother sound up top. In the highs, McIntosh in general tends to be a bit rolled off. I should note that this is bascially the same when comparing McIntosh with most other amps. I believe they are voiced with emphasis in the midrange to emulate a more tube like sound. The bass on the 501s/1201s is not nearly as dynamic as the Krells, and it is also slower in response; more tube like.
There are several disadvantages to the Krell. With the wrong recording or with the wrong pre-amp/cd player or cables, the Krell will make you pay for it. They can definitely be fatiguing in this scenario. Of course when everything is "right" they will make you cry from happiness. The next drawback is, although the Krell is solidly built, it does not match the appearance of the Macs nor the overall perception of looking what they cost. Because the Krell uses class A circuitry they run Very hot. Finally, and this can work in your favor if you buy used like I did, the Krells have a very high depreciation rate on the used market.
The McIntosh advantages are, nicer case design and asthetics, less sensative to poor recordings or incompatible equipment, and high resale value.
 
Josh said:
I have a few pair of 501s and I recently picked up a pair of Krell FPB750MCX monos. I would imagine the 400 sounds very similar, but just does not have the immense power of the 750s. I should note that a pair of 750s retailed for about $30k. With that said, in the ideal setup with a quality recording, the Krells absolutely embarass the 501s. Since I've heard 1201s on the same setup, the Krells blow those out of the water too and have considerably more power on tap.
The Krells have absolutely unbelievable detail and resolution. They have brought to the surface things that I have not heard in recordings that I have listened to many times before. The bass is incredibly dynamic and controlled. These amps offer the best speed and driver control that I have heard with any amplifier to date. By comparison, the 501s/1201s are far more relaxed. McIntosh is not known as a high resolution/detail amplifier so when compared directly to such a revealing amp like the Krell it becomes very noticeable that they lack in this area. The 501s have a warmer midrange with an overall smoother sound up top. In the highs, McIntosh in general tends to be a bit rolled off. I should note that this is bascially the same when comparing McIntosh with most other amps. I believe they are voiced with emphasis in the midrange to emulate a more tube like sound. The bass on the 501s/1201s is not nearly as dynamic as the Krells, and it is also slower in response; more tube like.
There are several disadvantages to the Krell. With the wrong recording or with the wrong pre-amp/cd player or cables, the Krell will make you pay for it. They can definitely be fatiguing in this scenario. Of course when everything is "right" they will make you cry from happiness. The next drawback is, although the Krell is solidly built, it does not match the appearance of the Macs nor the overall perception of looking what they cost. Because the Krell uses class A circuitry they run Very hot. Finally, and this can work in your favor if you buy used like I did, the Krells have a very high depreciation rate on the used market.
The McIntosh advantages are, nicer case design and asthetics, less sensative to poor recordings or incompatible equipment, and high resale value.
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I couldn't have put it better :thmbsp:Krell and Mc are vastly different in the emphasis they put on music. No way will Mc emulate the detail or slam of the krells. From your taste in music I presume the krells will be a better fit. For myself with predominantly vocal, small room acoustic recordings, classical ensembles, the tube mcs are a better fit :yes:

howie
 
Krell just layed off a lot of it's sales force due to financial problems. Check audioasylum. Also resale value of the Mcintosh amps are vastly better. When it's upgrade time, you don't take a beating with Mcintosh as you will with a lot of other brands.
 
803's simply are not capable of producing hard rock and metal slam bass in my opinion. They weren't designed for it and can't do it. Had two pairs of em. Acurate bass? You better believe it. Metal slam arena bass? Nope.

I'd go with 501's and get a sub(s) to blow the paint off the walls when need be. Suplimenting with a sub is really the only way you can do justice to hard music with 803's in my opinion. Even Krell can't make the speaker do more than it can do. If it were me, I'd go with the best "sounding" amp to my ears whether Mac or Krell then supliment the bass by subing.

I listened to metal all the time with my 800D's and the 501's did a wonderful job. A bit of suplimenting with subs even with those monsters just added to the experience for the hard stuff. I would not have wanted any more detail from such a revealing speaker. The 501's were perfect as far as detail and fatigueless listening goes.
 
Thanks for the opinion, I must check the best for my tastes. But i see that Krell could make me more happy. ;)
 
jesse111 said:
803's simply are not capable of producing hard rock and metal slam bass in my opinion. They weren't designed for it and can't do it. Had two pairs of em. Acurate bass? You better believe it. Metal slam arena bass? Nope.
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Personally, i didnt check lack of bass at 803D. Ive listened great stuff of music, including as I mentioned the JK Drum improvisation, and the bass almost blown the walls out, with Krell. I dont think it dont have bass, maybe my references today (Sony GRX9900 microsystem), makes me imagine the 803D with a lot more bass.

Of course, this towers couldnt be compared with their "D" up-brothers in bass area.
 
Our opinions of the 803 bass capability differ but that's ok. Everyone hears things differently. If you can get all the slam out of them that you need with the Krell, then it sounds like the Krell is for you. Achieving satisfiying bass without subs is certainly the way to go if at all possible in my opinion. It's all about your ears. :yes:

Enjoy the Krells with those excellent speakers!
 
The B&Ws can put out some decent bass, but they need an amp that can drive low ohm loads really well. Unfortunately, the 501s with their autoformers just don't accel in that range as well as some other amps out there, especially at higher volumes.
Jesse111, I'm not surprised you went with subs for the 800Ds if you are powering them with 501s. When using the 8 ohm tap, according to Stereophiles tests, the 501 was only capable of 225 watts at a 2 ohm load. Different taps will yeild different results. The 2 ohm tap yielded 630 watts at 2 ohms.
When using 501s with my Matrix 800s, they start to choke down low at higher volume levels. I have a Mark Levinson 336 (350wpc at 8 ohms) that I put up against them and it had more power in reserve than the 501s. The 501s would never clip, but the bass would roll off, where as with the Levinson it would not. The Krells (750s) had even more in reserve, which is obvious since they output more than 3kw at 2 ohms and 6kw at 1 ohm. The 400CX in question will output 1600 watts at 2 ohms and beyond. The 501s don't stand a chance here.
Pabrognara, I have little doubt you got a lot more bass with the Krell. It simply is not where McIntosh amps shine.
 
Josh said:
Pabrognara, I have little doubt you got a lot more bass with the Krell. It simply is not where McIntosh amps shine.
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Hello Josh,

I´ve just didnt understand... You said that krells demands more power than Mac at lower ohms, but at the quote above, you doubt if the 400cx could demand more bass then Mac501?
 
Josh said:
Jesse111, I'm not surprised you went with subs for the 800Ds if you are powering them with 501s. When using the 8 ohm tap, according to Stereophiles tests, the 501 was only capable of 225 watts at a 2 ohm load. Different taps will yeild different results. The 2 ohm tap yielded 630 watts at 2 ohms.
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I´ve had an interesting experience here :D

Before I auditioned the Krell KCT+400CX with 803D, I´ve made and audition usin this gear at 800D. Didnt like. The sound lacked macrodynamic and bass. But after listening this SAME gear with the 803D, the bass appeared a LOT more and heavy duty than in 800D.

And in this way, Josh is right: The 800D demands an Amp that "makes" a LOT power in lower ohms. These speakers, can stay with 1000Wrms when 8ohms, but they have 03 ohms min impedance! So, to these speakers sing it´s necessary an amp more than MC501 or 400CX, in this case, the 750MCX OR the MC1200 :thmbsp:
 
I can't disagree with you as regards the Krell and Levinson amps. Powerful they certainly are.

I ran my 800D's using the 4 ohm taps. While the bass was fully satisfying in all music, it was only the full arena ambience of a live hard rock concert that seemed lacking, that is my focus here. Truth be told, live bass at a rock concert is way over the top and hardly accurate but that's the way live hard rock sounds at every concert I've ever been to.

Your stats certainly make sense. But the 800D and furthermore, the 803 hardly need the power ratings you mention above. Yes, there is an advantage to higher power but there comes a point when there is just no additional benefit. You also have to be more aware of the speaker limitations with massive power. Metal heads tend to push the limits. I've heard of a few cases where the 1201 fried the 800D. I think it's important to match a system well. I also used B&W's own recommended Classe M400's and found the bass less controlled than Mac 501's.

I agree it's possble that additional bass may be had with other amps but I'm not sure big stat numbers at super low resistance tells the whole story. Furthermore, there is going to be a trade off when you move away from McIntosh gear and that is certainly a personal preference.

As for the 803 outperforming the 800D using the same amps? That would be an impossibilty no matter what amps you used. There is only two possible explanations for that. Either the 800D was setup very poorly (which I find most dealers fail miserably on). Or you have a unique preference in your taste of sound. But hey, that's cool. That's why we have so many choices out there.

Next to my biamped 20.1's, the 800D properly setup was the next best musical bass I've ever heard. Very accurate, full with virtually no bloat and overhang.
 
jesse111 said:
But hey, that's cool. That's why we have so many choices out there.
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yep, that could be the main case, but i still find the 400CX a small amp for the 800D. Again i could be wrong or the 800D sounds diferent than 803D, but to me the 800D deserves an AMP like MC1201 or Krell 750MCX or Krell Evolution 900.

But the important, is our satisfaction, and Let´s "Hell Bang forever" heheheeh :D :thmbsp:
 
You're avatar brings back memories. I remember seeing Judas Priest back in the days when Rob Halford started the show by riding his Harley (Sportster I think) up on the stage. That was the British Steel tour. I'm sure he can afford a bit bigger bike these days. Saw them in Market Square Arena in Indianapolis. Boy, those were the days.
 
Ohh that´s cool.

This pic is from Defenders oF The Faith era, and was at the end of the show performing "Hell Bent For Leather". Yep, it´s a great vocalist great band, cenario, and huge sound. :)

Just a curiosity: What was the date or the year you have been at this show?? :D
 
I can't remember the date. But it was either 1980 or 81. To be honest with you, I hardly remember that entire decade. Younger and much crazier in those days.
 
I totaly agree with Jesse about the better precision of Mcintosh compared to Classé.I myself drive the 800D and the HTM-1D with the 1201 blocks and I can asure you there is enough bass, just like Jesse said, when listening to Metal or Hard Rock , but I think you don't buy this sort of equipment to listen all the time to Metal.If it's now and than, you will be very satisfied with these speakers and the Mac amplifiers.I also think Krell is more fatigueing
 
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