Measuring watts between amp and speakers, is my reasoning sound?

jm55

Well-Known Member
I have 15" Tannoy monitor gold's in GRF cabinets being driven by a very early Bryston 2B rated 50 watts. I am switching the amp to a Grundig NF-2 which is rated 15 watts. I'm sure that is more than enough power for my listening, but I'd still like to know what kind of watts I am drawing at my usual listening levels. I just did some googling, and read about how to use a voltmeter and an equation to determine watts. It looks simple enough, but I think I have an even simpler way. I have a Carver TFM-35, which has Vu meters.

If I connect the Carver, play a reference track, observe and note the peak wattage, is it fair to infer that if instead I have the Grundig connected and play the same track at the same volume, the wattage drawn on the Grundig will be the same as what was drawn from the Carver?
 
Register to hide this ad
I think this boils down to a simple question: Will I drive the Grundig even slightly into clipping? To get a definitive answer, you really need a scope or something closely equivalent, such as a PC with sound card and appropriate software (and an attenuator to prevent damage to the audio input circuits).
 
Thanks for the replies, but they don't really clarify my main question. If my Carver indicates say 4 watt peaks on a reference track at a defined volume, is it reasonable to assume that if I then connect the Grundig, it will be supplying approximately the same 4 watts on the same reference track at the same volume?
 
Roughly, but it depends greatly on the accuracy of the meter. A lot of them just aren't that close.
 
If the sound pressure level created from the Carver is the same as the sound pressure level created from the Grundig at the same distance, then yeah, I think it will be in the ball park, at least as accurate as the meters on the Carver. Those meters are log scale aren't they? I think there's some damping in the meter movement also so it won't be real precise, more of a moving average, so to speak.
 
jm55- The Carver may have a different input voltage sensitivity than the Grundig. Consumer amps are rated having a 316mv AC (-10dBV) input sensitivity, while pro amps use 1.22v AC (+4dBu). In the early days of tube HiFi, sensitivities seem to be similar, but more random.
Also, I don't see why you can't measure the average voltage at the speaker , then multiplying it by the speaker's nominal impedance to get a rough idea of the power it is consuming. I myself depend on an old Radio Shack LED power meter (APM-500) for my listening power level. It's simply a voltmeter that is calibrated to multiply it's readings by 8 Ohms in this case.Try that, they are still out there for sale used.
 
Thats what most power amp's wattmeters are as well, a voltmeter with an appropriately marked scale that assumes some particular speaker impedance.
 
It may not be totally accurate, but for comparison purposes, it should work just fine.

It occurs to me that measuring the voltage with a meter might be more accurate if using a sine wave input rather than a music signal. Although you still have the problem of not knowing exactly what the speaker's impedance is at any given frequency, if you want to calculate watts very accurately.
 
jm55- The Carver may have a different input voltage sensitivity than the Grundig. Consumer amps are rated having a 316mv AC (-10dBV) input sensitivity, while pro amps use 1.22v AC (+4dBu).

Indeed the input sensitivites could be different. And, presumably to that point volume control position is not a good indicator.

However, the specifics you mention is for line level stuff like tape in/out, not the variable level signal with regard pre out/amp input.
 
Last edited:
It may not be totally accurate, but for comparison purposes, it should work just fine.

It occurs to me that measuring the voltage with a meter might be more accurate if using a sine wave input rather than a music signal. Although you still have the problem of not knowing exactly what the speaker's impedance is at any given frequency, if you want to calculate watts very accurately.

Unless one is trying to fully document performance, a measurement at 1kHz is generally fine just for comparison sake.
 
I hooked up the Carver last night. At louder than normal listening levels for me, the Carver barely cracked 1 watt on peaks (perhaps 1/2 watt average), so even if there was a difference in input sensitivity of the two amps, it looks like the Grundig NF2 will be fine for my listening levels. I might still try calculating the wattage for the experience.
 
Last edited:
It occurs to me that measuring the voltage with a meter might be more accurate if using a sine wave input rather than a music signal. Although you still have the problem of not knowing exactly what the speaker's impedance is at any given frequency, if you want to calculate watts very accurately.

Right.

Much of this factored into the debate over the 1974 "Power Amplifier Rating Rule" from the Federal Trade Commission (FTC).

The rules were intended to eliminate serious misrepresentations of fact (aka deliberate lying) in power ratings, but it demonstrated that measuring amplifier power is difficult because nobody well understood the best way to measure amplifier power, and the measurement slate ultimately selected had defects about which the manufacturers mightily complained, but to little avail.

The Dynaco ST-70, for example, had its bandwidth halved and power rating reduced by about 40%. Did the amplifier's performance change? No, but the perceived performance did. Hafler tried to sway the FTC and consumers with detailed advertising but it had no effect.

Comparing watts from the pre-FTC period with watts from the post-FTC period is thus highly problematic.
 
Thats a big part of why understanding the test conditions is necessary to compare things. Watts aint watts if you are not testing things under the same conditions.

Not overly surprised that he only got about a watt of reading. I suspect most people use less power for normal listening than they imagine.
 
I hooked up the Carver last night. At louder than normal listening levels for me, the Carver barely cracked 1 watt on peaks (perhaps 1/2 watt average), so even if there was a difference in input sensitivity of the two amps, it looks like the Grundig NF2 will be fine for my listening levels. I might still try calculating the wattage for the experience.

The input sensitivity is a moot point anyway.

All that means is to hit the same volume level you might have to turn the volume knob a bit more, or not as much, with one vs. the other.

And, if you really want compare power for relative listening levels you need to be able to look at peaks too. A small amp may have enough to keep up for low/moderate "average" levels but peak demand on the smaller amp could result in clipping.
 
Last edited:
Which is why I suggested getting equal sound pressure levels between the two amps, as heard at your listening position, using the same program material. If the voltage produced by the amp at the speaker terminals to drive the speakers to the same SPL is the same between the two amps, then the wattage seen at the speaker terminals for those two amps, and for that speaker load, will also be the same. Would need a sound pressure meter to do this properly though. I bought one at Radio Shack a gazillion years ago. But yeah, doesn't surprise me that "normal" listening volumes are on average less than a watt.
 
I have an SPL. Not an expensive one, but I'm sure it would be good enough. I tried measuring the voltage with an auto-range digital meter on some rock music, and was going to use the formula:

P = power in watts
E = Voltage in AC volts across the speaker terminals
Z = impedance in Ohms

Put an AC volt meter across the speaker terminals.

Play your most difficult musical passage at the loudest level to check for power draw.

P = E squared/Z

... but a strange thing happened. It measured .037 volts from no sound to fairly loud. At some point approaching quite loud, the meter started to bounce around, but I did not have confidence that I was able to visually capture an accurate value. It stayed at .037v for a wide range of volume, from zero and up.

It is normal to see volts even with no volume?
 
Sounds as if you were measuring DC voltage ...

P does not equal V^2/Z
P = V^2/R

SPL comparisons would be a better choice. You cannot measure amplifier power in the way you have been led to believe.
 
Last edited:
All I was saying is that if the SPL levels are the same, then the wattage as seen on the carver meter will be more or less accurate as representing the watts the Grundig is producing.

To do an actual measurement of watts output at the speaker terminals, you need to set a few more conditions, and this is typically done on a test bench.
1. Fit in a dummy load on the speaker terminals instead of an actual speaker. i.e., an 8 ohm resistor on the 8 ohm tap. The resistor needs to be beefy (usually a wirewound) so that it can handle the heat produced for prolonged tests.
2. Run a pure sine wave at say 1KHz through the amp.
3. Use a scope or a good true RMS meter to measure the voltage output across the load. If using a scope, convert the peak reading to RMS. (divide by square root of 2).
4. Calculate the power in watts delivered across the load by taking the RMS voltage value, squaring it, and dividing by the resistance value.

Note this is exactly the same procedure one would use with complex program material on an actual speaker load IFF you could measure the actual RMS voltage delivered across the actual speaker load. Real program material is a composition of many superimposed sine waves at numerous different frequencies, and a real speaker load is a combination of a pure resistance and complex reactance. It is represented as a vector that contains real (resistive) and complex (reactive) vector components. When plotting on a 2-D plane, these are represented as the X and Y components on a cartesian plane. Equivalently, you can represent complex impedances as amplitude and phase. Both representations are identical. The reactance portion of the impedance of a speaker is created from the capacitive and inductive components in speaker coil and crossover. You can get an idea of this complex load by looking at a specifications that hifi magazines sometimes publish for impedance of speakers. They are often cited as impedance-amplitude and impedance-phase plots from 20 Hertz to 100 KHz or so. In the amplitude/phase method of describing impedances, you will note these plots are rarely straight lines. They fluctuate, sometimes greatly, with frequencies across the load.

So the catch in doing this approach with real program material on actual speaker loads would be to use a true RMS meter to capture the actual RMS value across the complex load. But the process would be identical as I described above. To make this more reasonably doable on a layman's test bench, we replace the complex speaker load with an 8 ohm resistive load, and we replace the actual program material with a single sine wave at a given frequency. Then you can at least vary the frequency while keeping the load purely resistive, to give a glimpse into how the amp responds to changes in power at different frequencies across the load.
 
And ... Current and Voltage need be in phase with one another, which is why the resistor is used versus a loudspeaker.
 
Back
Top Bottom