Modern fully discrete SS amps

bob412

bob412

Active Member
I find that vintage SS amps base on fully discrete circuits tend to have a more open and spacious sound stage to my liking . I first noticed this with several very old receivers I have . I use vintage loudspeakers with all alnico magnetic motors . I recently compared one of these old discrete amps to a more modern one ( Onkyo receiver ) . I'm not going to say it was like night and day but the fully discrete amp clearly had a wider , more spacious sound stage and a more 3-D type stereo image through my speakers . The reason I'm posting is that it's becoming harder and harder for me to keep these older amps alive when something goes wrong with them . I usually end up selling the amp instead or trying to fix , unless it's something like a cap replacement . This is the result of not being tech savy . Anyway I was wondering are there any modern SS amps made today that's base on fully discrete circuits , no opamp , or ICs . Comments appreciated .
 
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My big Yamaha Surround Receiver from the early 2000's uses discreet output transistors but I can't speak to the rest of the electronics. It is musical, packs a punch, and lacks in nothing. The Yamaha A-S2000 is a nice modern integrated amp. I think there's a thread or two here on AK including some nudies. Hopefully, others will chime in as I know I didn't give much of a direct answer to your question.
 
Most modern two channel amps and receivers use discrete power amps, don't know about their preamp sections though. Even the basic inexpensive two channel ones from Sherwood, Onkyo and TEAC use discrete outs. Don't know how they stack up to older designs, and there's more to a good stout amp than just its output design (particularly in the power supply section). You might consider some good modern separates, they usually have good solid builds with plenty of reserve power.
 
A lot of current and recent Marantz amps use "HDAM" modules made from discrete transistors and resistors instead of op amps. So they don't use ICs for amplification, although I suspect they do for control purposes. I have a PM-11S2 which sounds excellent.
 
Just acquired two onkyo's myself. And my drivers are alnico and titanium and soft mid to tweets in acoustic suspension (sealed cabs) You're basically matching the amp impedance to your speakers at 8 to 16 ohms? you did not cite onkyo model? some are 4 or 8 ohms restricted to a/b channels etc?

Sounds like the amp is telling the speakers what to do. as in your old amp is just losing it and needs some work. I own 4 onkyo's and all have op amps inside but also used for filtering and excellent response in the preamp stages.
 
To me, the bottom line is how well the circuit has been designed and implemented, not necessarily whether the components are discrete or integrated. A poorly designed discrete amp will sound poor, a well designed one will sound good. A poorly designed amp with integrated components will sound poor, a well designed one will sound good.

Then factor in the condition of the amp, an amp with failing or out of spec components will sound poor, regardless of the design.
 
^^^^ That.

It's almost certainly a matter of "Old" components having both voltage and current capacity, while new receivers are often terribly limited in terms of current, yet have more than adequate voltage.

Current vs. voltage is not the only functional difference between new receivers and old amps, but it's a big one.

First Guess: There's plenty of brand-new power amps that don't have ICs in the signal path, but they won't be inexpensive. There will be NO receivers that don't use ICs, and few integrated amps.
 
There are EXCELLENT op amps, on the market within just the last few years, that will outperform discrete parts in small signal applications.

As for power amps, anything over a few watts, if attempting to use ICs, will probably use discrete parts as actual output devices. A fully discrete design will be much better here, at least for the next few years.
 
Sigh.. There are *Many* discrete Amp designs about.
Unless willing to Spend Large ..unlilkely otherwise you wouldn't be Here :-)
The DIY arena has Dozens of Truly Excellent Amps.. Most ALL discrete.
Far and beyond the Qualities found in in geriatric 'Vintage' Amps of decades superceeded technology.
Not wanting to assemble Bits??
Then one 'could' buy an Ebay Tpa 3116 Pcb amp for ~15$ delivered, that once setup /integrated into Your system.
Will Easily outsound Most anything you've tried to date.
Risk ? the $15 and try for yourself ??
 
Then one 'could' buy an Ebay Tpa 3116 Pcb amp for ~15$ delivered, that once setup /integrated into Your system.
Will Easily outsound Most anything you've tried to date.
Risk ? the $15 and try for yourself ??
Click to expand...
As much as I like and use Class "D" amps based on a TPA3110D2 and I have 2 TPA3116 weiners designed by gmarsh from the diyaudio forum. They are fine for lower power situations and they sound fine. But they do lack the power and detail of my higher powered discrete class "AB" amps.
There are lots of options today for hybrid designs too. I am also putting together a hybrid design. Another diyaudio design using the OPC latfet wire amp. It is using a TI LME49830 100V driver and Semelabs lateral mosfets,ALF16N(P)16. From what it measures and listener feedback, it sounds like another fine high powered amp.
So all you really need discrete devices is for the drivers and o/p stage devices. Yes some will say that one should design all discrete Power amps so I will not argue about that but they should evaluate the hybrid options before they come to that conclusion. Take a look at the elektor q-watt design = stellar performance.
 
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The only reason ICs would not be as good as discrete is how they deal with interlayer capacitance. the parts are the same. A transistor is still a transistor, a diode still a diode and so forth. There might be less opportunity to tweak each stage with Miller caps and whatever, but that can be solved by printing good enough devices and dealing with Miller globally. We think. that is the ONLY real bitch about ICs when it comes to audio quality.

Alot bigger concern is when it breaks. If it has ICs that are proprietary, then you might be dependent upon the factory for replacements. Of course some can modify and refit the unit for different ICs but too much of that and you start to think - is this what it is supposed to be ?

For example, in my crowd we have a Marantz 1180DC that is REALLY REALLY fried out. Both channels and really bad. Now I am sure I can find some sort of ICs, or even build a much simpler amp and stick it in there, but then it is not a Marantz anymore. I'll do it with lesser units, but something of that caliber, if I did i would probably consider myself morally obligated to remove the name from the front because it is no longer that.

Anyway, this original question - Let's have some model numbers and see if the engine has the print.

Another thing I should mention. With ICs they can use alot more transistors because it is much cheaper. With the DC coupling if there is a failure of course it usually become catastrophic.

I actually refused to work an a Yamaha Wedge because they pretty much made an IC with discrete components. A highly rated amp to be sure, but right there where it was and everything, I was sure they would not want to pay. We are talking about ALOT of silicon and one little thing might blow it all. Nope, there was burnt components down by the low signal area, which means it was probably abused or there was a lightning strike. In that case, it would have been better off with ICs.

I think the design options are so much more varied with discrete that the designer can do alot more to make the amp superior. They sell ICs to engineers the same way as anything else is sold - purported to be easy and cheap. Less peripheral components ! Well if the thing just has input, output, feedback and power pins, what can you do to it to make it better ? Whatever they thought could be done has been done. The engineer's job is no longer audio, but to get the wifi working and set up the menus, user interface, whatever.
 
Seen power ICS outgun discrete in the 70watt area....

If picking up an amp purely on output devices, accept only SanKen MT200 devices on your heatsink.....

Amplifiers such as Sony TA-N1 Yamaha MX-10000 Technics SE-A3MK2 Onkyo Grand Integra M-510 and Rotel Michi RHB-10 and Ramsa WP-9440 are examples pdf what serious amps are, and not the standard are plain Jane run of the mill MT100 devices which I consiser all too common due to lack of enthusiasm from many engineers.... If you start a topic like this, let's drop the mediocrity of it all and keep standards high....

Too many of you there have not heard a decent IC output stage... They do exist, but not in run of the mill STKs... Darlington power packs can sound quite good, the SVI200X series just lifted the game in that area.
 
Well designed /built lm 3886 types.
As in Not Chi Fi, but First world builds, can/do outsound a Lot of Brand Name mid priced amps.
By a strikingly audible margin.
Jeff Rowland has a monster Lm3886 chip amp design of Serious power output. Price of a Car tho :-)

That said, I have a diy (discrete) VSSA amp build, in final getting it dialed in stages
that is already a clear sound step above the Lm3886.
There is Always something 'better' in any Human endeavor.
 
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We have some aussie members on ak who are like op amp tweakers quite a few in USA, too.

have a sony av/early junker loaded with op amps.. filtering then staged reamping and then more filters then into fet's. Also has input filter chips and remote etc. It's almost like emitter follower type aa ab and tube like. Tubes cost money, too. op amps are not digital, just very small versions of good signal processing.
 
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