My Very-First Tube Forum Thread (Fisher Alert ;) )

[Gang-Twanger]

i'd think they should be high sensitivity...wait...did someone say high sensitivity? are you thinking what i'm thinkin???

It means my W90's are very-sensitive speakers, so any 'cone-tweeter' jokes should be spoken OUTSIDE the room and away from them. They're fragile and tend to get upset when judged harshly...

 

[davidro]

i was thinking more about your flirting with Single Ended Triode valve amplication...

 

[Gang-Twanger]

Great thread Gang-Twanger. Keep enjoying the 800C. I'm (almost) living vicariously via this thread. Especially the description of the voices and seperation of instruments. Hopefully, you'll check back in with and update here and there.

Thanks. Yeah, I've really-been enjoying it the last couple days. Tubes have always been best at producing a natural sound. I learned that with guitar amps, so I've been wanting a tube amp for some time, but the killer headphone-out was major bonus. .I still want to try one of the earlier, tube-rectified models with my W90's at some point (Is it possible to use a tube rectifier in the *00c models? I've done it with guitar amps before, but I wasn't sure whether or not it would work with these hi-fi jobbers).

Damn, this sounds good with headphones. Clean and powerful with great imaging. I do a lot of after hours listening, so I'll have to keep an eye out for some used headphones, something really-choice that I couldn't possibly afford buying new (Something with an open-back design like my Grados).

 

[Gang-Twanger]

i was thinking more about your flirting with Single Ended Triode valve amplication...

Whoops... OK, maybe I'M the sensitive one...

(Last time I was at the doctor, he said I was 93dB @ 1 meter, although I didn't much like it when he broke out the multi-meter and attached the roach clips you-know-where... )

 

[Gang-Twanger]

One thing that seems readily-apparent about the Fisher, it loves the Zeppelin... LOVES it.

Last night I played Zep I on up to HOTH, and it's like listening to the master-tape. Incredible. This thing LOVES acoustic instruments, so songs like "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" and "Babe, I'm Gonna' Leave You" just incredible. There's no issues with acoustic guitars getting lost in the mix, or anything like that. They're right out there, as are cymbals, percussion instruments, and silky-smooth too. The W90's are uncanny with Zep stuff, and the Fisher takes full advantage of that as well as the wide soundstage they afford. It's quite a combination.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I never was on that was much into big band music, but find a good recording of Sing Sing Sing, and throw that on, in fact any big band with lots of brass is always fun.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

I never was on that was much into big band music, but find a good recording of Sing Sing Sing, and throw that on, in fact any big band with lots of brass is always fun.

I haven't yet dug into my big band stuff (like my "Benny In Brussels" LP or that "Pete Kelly's Blues" dixieland jazz LP I have which sounds incredible). Been saving it for later. I've just been running digital so far. But I have a few Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington CD's (and even a Louis Armstrong MEETS Duke Ellington disc). Might have to check one of those out tonight. Listening to Sabbath at the moment.

 

[larryderouin]

Congrats Gang. It took a "Cougar" to get you away from that "sleezy little Sansui 2000a" huh? . I've got 2 800-c's. And love both of them. One of them is in an Executive console and the other is hooked up to a pair of NLA's. Occasionally I'll pull the Bozaks :thmbsput but they are really too big for the room.

They definately have a HIGH FUN quotient, don't they.

And they DO get jealous of other amps.:bash: So watch your SIX.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

Congrats Gang. It took a "Cougar" to get you away from that "sleezy little Sansui 2000a" huh? . I've got 2 800-c's. And love both of them. One of them is in an Executive console and the other is hooked up to a pair of NLA's. Occasionally I'll pull the Bozaks :thmbsput but they are really too big for the room.

They definately have a HIGH FUN quotient, don't they.

And they DO get jealous of other amps.:bash: So watch your SIX.

:lmao:

Yeah, I caught the Sansui cheating... Payback is a, uh.......well, :scratch2: .... a big receiver with the name FISHER on the front. :sadwave:

I posted this in another thread, but I went to a flea market this morning and came back with some nice ones. Got a WLP of the Faces' "A Nod Is As Good As A Wink" (Shoulda' seen my face when I spotted THAT one in a box of $1 vinyl... I bought like 15 LP's from this one box), the Rossington-Collins Band's "Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere", Johnny Cash's "Live At San Quentin", Van Halen's "Diver Down" (to complete my collection of the original Dave albums on vinyl), a quad of the Guess Who's "Road Food", a Lionel Hampton record on the old '50's Audio Fidelity label (AFSD-5849), Ike & Tina's "Greatest Hits", a nice copy of "Thriller", plus AC/DC's "Highway To Hell" & "For Those About To Rock...". And the topper? A beautiful 1st-pressing copy of James Brown's "Hot Pants" (1972).

I also got a card from a local guy with a boatload of tubes (in the corresponding boxes for $2 each, so I think I'm gonna' make a list and take a run over and see what I can find (I know he's got a lot of old radios, so who knows, but worth looking into because I was seeing mostly US brands from the '50's and '60's, and he said he's got the 12ax7 and 12at7 ones. Old guy and his wife doing it out of their home, so I have a good feeling about this.

All in all, a very-good morning... And it's my birthday tomorrow.

Whoops... Knew I'd forget... How would you describe the 1000A in comparison to the 800c (or the *00c series in general)? My 2000x has a throatier, more-forward sound than my 800c, at least on vocals, and while I love that receiver, the 800c's LESS-forward sound makes it a better match for this room (and neighbors). And I remember someone saying the same thing about one of the other brands, either the Sherwood tube receivers or the Scott 299/399 models. Can't remember which brand it was.

 

[stoutblock]

great thread! It's been a while so I think I will hook up my 800c this morning...:yes:

 

[Gang-Twanger]

great thread! It's been a while so I think I will hook up my 800c this morning...:yes:

Nice... I'm still getting to know mine at this point, but it's quite a receiver. I've actually been listening to the headphone-out just as much as my W90's.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

I've been thinking of just putting up a separate thread about this, but I'll try here first...

As soon as I have the money, I want to get working on putting together the perfect compliment of NOS tubes for this thing (the 800c, that is... just in case you missed it), so there are a few things that I need to know (Boy, "Mountain Jam" rocks on this thing, as does ANY Allman Bros... Great with the southern-rock).

First off, which tubes (or maybe I should say tube SOCKETS) are the most-tone-affecting? In other words, if I want to play around with the tone of the preamp section (I mainly-use the AUX/Tape Out & phono settings... I almost never listen to the radio), which tube-positions are the key ones to change/swap/replace?

And second, with respect to the questions I asked in the previous paragraph, I'd like to get a better idea about which brand of NOS (old ones in other words) tubes will give me the kind of sound I would prefer most. Many AK'ers are already well-aware of this, but I love a warm, musical sound. I hate neutral-sounding gear (I 'm referring to the cold, lifeless, overly-analytical-sounding stuff). I also like smoothness, dynamics, and a nice, effortless bass. My 2000x has a sound that's not far from where I want it. In terms of warmth and musicality, the 2000x was right on, so I'd like to continue in that direction.

And third, I will surely want to try some different 7591A's in there at some point, so I was curious what some of you feel is your favorite one and why (NOS originals, I mean).

Thanks in advance... And furthermore, this thing kicks serious booty. I listen to a lot of complicated music, but when I say complicated, I mean that the SOUNDSTAGE is complicated, either with lots of multi-tracked parts or simply a lot of instruments/vocals involved in the recording, and this has always been one of the W90's strong points, and apparently the Fisher's as well. Does a great job with the "Truck Turner" soundtrack.

Getting there... By the way, holy cow, does Bob Marley's "Redemption Song" sound good with this receiver... ALL Bob Marley stuff sounds good. REALLY-good.

 

[audiodon]

7591s in my order of preference:
Westinghouse: Rich and mellow. Full extension
Sylvania: Bright and more forward. Full extension. Good for sparkle.
Electro Harmonix: Strong across the full spectrum.

Fisher branded can be either Westys or Sylvies. Both Westy and Sylvy made tubes for everybody US. You'll find them branded as everything from Dumont to RCA, Eico, Dynaco, Sherwood, to probably Joe's tubes if Joe bought a lot of 10,000.
If you see 337 in a vertical line, that's the Westinghouse manufacturer code.

Typically, if the manufacturer is Westinghouse, the inventor of this tube, it has 7591 etched in the glass, often on the top and sometimes some dots. But not always.
Sylvanias typically have 7591 or 7591A printed on the side glass of the tube and, unless coin based, have a shorter bakelite base. I don't think Westinghouse ever made coin based 7591s, but Sylvania's name changed to Philips/ECG along the way and they ditched the bakelite base for a coin based look.

For 12AX7s, I don't know the tube position numbers on an 800-C, like V14, V15 on the schematic because I don't know how the AM tubes change the designations, but he sensitive positions for the aux input are the line/tone amp tubes right behind the dial glass. The phono tubes have tube shields and those two tubes affect the sound of the phono stage.
Some swear that the phase inverter positions, which are right in front of the output transformers, matter.

I tend to like 5751s in the tone amp positions for their neutrality and quietness of presentation, but you may prefer a more sparkly 12aX7 presentation (Telefunken) or mellow (Mullard) or voluptuous (RCA long chalky black plate), or an extended Tung-Sol sound, or even a bright Raytheon black plate sound.
Rollin' can be expensive, but also a lot of fun.

I'm sure Sony6060 could also put forth some well reasoned opinions here.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

7591s in my order of preference:
Westinghouse: Rich and mellow. Full extension
Sylvania: Bright and more forward. Full extension. Good for sparkle.
Electro Harmonix: Strong across the full spectrum.

Fisher branded can be either Westys or Sylvies. Both Westy and Sylvy made tubes for everybody US. You'll find them branded as everything from Dumont to RCA, Eico, Dynaco, Sherwood, to probably Joe's tubes if Joe bought a lot of 10,000.
If you see 337 in a vertical line, that's the Westinghouse manufacturer code.

Typically, if the manufacturer is Westinghouse, the inventor of this tube, it has 7591 etched in the glass, often on the top and sometimes some dots. But not always.
Sylvanias typically have 7591 or 7591A printed on the side glass of the tube and, unless coin based, have a shorter bakelite base. I don't think Westinghouse ever made coin based 7591s, but Sylvania's name changed to Philips/ECG along the way and they ditched the bakelite base for a coin based look.

For 12AX7s, I don't know the tube position numbers on an 800-C, like V14, V15 on the schematic because I don't know how the AM tubes change the designations, but he sensitive positions for the aux input are the line/tone amp tubes right behind the dial glass. The phono tubes have tube shields and those two tubes affect the sound of the phono stage.
Some swear that the phase inverter positions, which are right in front of the output transformers, matter.

I tend to like 5751s in the tone amp positions for their neutrality and quietness of presentation, but you may prefer a more sparkly 12aX7 presentation (Telefunken) or mellow (Mullard) or voluptuous (RCA long chalky black plate), or an extended Tung-Sol sound. or even a bright Raytheon black plate sound.
Rollin' can be expensive, but also a lot of fun.

I'm sure Sony6060 could also put forth some well reasoned opinions here.

Thanks for the help... If I'm correct here, it looks like two RCA's and what looks to be one Westinghouse and one Sylvania, so I probably want to go with a full quartet (or matched pairs?) of either RCA's or Westinghouses, since it seems like they're more my speed. I wonder how WH's compare sonically to RCA's, as in which is richer/warmer/more-musical/etc (I keep stressing the 'warm, inviting, musical' part because that's always been my thing, plus it's the best thing for my Wharfedales). Did GE make a 7591 or 7591A (and if so, how does THAT sound in relation to something like an RCA or Westinghouse)?

And I was already thinking that Telefunkens are not for me, and you just confirmed this, so I'm probably best with something like an RCA for the preamp tubes, although I'm gonna' research this a lot further (I LOVE that I don't have to bias when replacing/swapping preamp tubes, if that is indeed the case... Don't have the tools OR the know-how).

Anyway, that helps a lot. My W90's like a rich, ultra-musical amp/receiver with some warmth to it, so having a quartet of Sylvania 7591's in the power section and a bunch of Telefunkens in the preamp/tuner would likely be a bad idea. I'd probably be best with either Westinghouses or RCA's (Or maybe 2 RCA's and two WH's? Do people do that sort of thing, in an effort to "tailor" the sound). I'm already aware of how the old RCA 6L6's sound, and I assume the RCA 12ax7's are of similar character in relation to other 12ax7's from that era, so I'm probably best off with something along those lines. How are the old GE 12ax7's?

On my 800c's chassis, it actually says 7591A on each of the four power-tube positions, but I know people have mentioned using the ones WITHOUT the letter (I forget what the difference is between them).

 

[audiodon]

My memory might be a little fuzzy, but I think GE rebranded Sylvania 7591s and GE made some 7868s, which are to be avoided.

I suggest not prejudging what tubes you'd like best in any position. You may be surprised. I've grown fond of the Sylvania 7591s, though I started as strictly a Westy guy.

As far as the labels go, you can't tell who made the tubes. Westinghouse made some and labeled them RCA 7591 and Sylvania made some RCAs and labeled them 7591. You can tell better by looking at the 7591 numbers on the glass .. . and not all of them have that, but typically if there's nothing on the glass it's a Sylvania. Typically Westies say 7591 on the top, but again, not always.
The hint will be that, for the mostpart, the Sylvania bakelite bases are a tad shorter than the Sylvanias .. . all but the earliest Sylvanias that is.

You may want to start a new thread on this subject on the Fisher forum and link to there from this thread.

 

[michaelhigh]

Someday I'll have a Fisher tuber. SET has definitely changed the way I listen.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

My memory might be a little fuzzy, but I think GE rebranded Sylvania 7591s and GE made some 7868s, which are to be avoided.

I suggest not prejudging what tubes you'd like best in any position. You may be surprised. I've grown fond of the Sylvania 7591s, though I started as strictly a Westy guy.

As far as the labels go, you can't tell who made the tubes. Westinghouse made some and labeled them RCA 7591 and Sylvania made some RCAs and labeled them 7591. You can tell better by looking at the 7591 numbers on the glass .. . and not all of them have that, but typically if there's nothing on the glass it's a Sylvania. Typically Westies say 7591 on the top, but again, not always.
The hint will be that, for the mostpart, the Sylvania bakelite bases are a tad shorter than the Sylvanias .. . all but the earliest Sylvanias that is.

You may want to start a new thread on this subject on the Fisher forum and link to there from this thread.

Yeah, I know there was a ton of rebranding going on, so I've been trying to learn how to spot the key manufacturing traits (I'm pretty-new to this). Complicated stuff. There ARE some useful guides online though. I just have trouble remembering all the details. "Get this one, but don't get the one that has the short plates, but you want the one with the horseshoe-shaped getter, remember to look for the "R" code branded on the bottom, and don't forget to look for... ". I mean, jeez...

I'm starting to figure it out, but it takes time.

The RCA's in mine have no print on top (on the smoked/metallic part of the glass), so would that mean they are Sylvanias?

I'm really-sensitive to bright-sounding tubes/parts/gear, and I love a warm, smooth, open sound with lots of life to it, so I'm looking real close at the Mullard CV4004 (M187 ECC83 Box plate). But I'm also thinking about some early RCA 12ax7's, although either will surely cost me some dough (That's why I'd like to start off working on some key areas where I'm going to see the most-improvement in the AUX and phono settings). I don't even need them to be full-on NOS (Maybe something with a 60-75% rating if it came down to it). I'm concerned most about getting the sound I want. I've experienced '50's and early '60's tubes in guitar amps, and I much-prefer them to modern tubes. Like I said, I'm looking to warm this thing up.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

Someday I'll have a Fisher tuber. SET has definitely changed the way I listen.

Yeah, I might have gotten an SET if my speakers were efficient enough, but they really-need something in the 20-40wpc range. Tubes are definitely a whole new ballgame. I can't live without them in my guitar amps, so it made sense that I'd eventually go that route with my hi-fi setup (I don't have the room (or the attention span) for multiple systems, so my goal has always been to put together the best single system I can....... On my budget, of course).

 

[jgannon]

I've been thinking of just putting up a separate thread about this, but I'll try here first...

As soon as I have the money, I want to get working on putting together the perfect compliment of NOS tubes for this thing (the 800c, that is... just in case you missed it), so there are a few things that I need to know (Boy, "Mountain Jam" rocks on this thing, as does ANY Allman Bros... Great with the southern-rock).

First off, which tubes (or maybe I should say tube SOCKETS) are the most-tone-affecting? In other words, if I want to play around with the tone of the preamp section (I mainly-use the AUX/Tape Out & phono settings... I almost never listen to the radio), which tube-positions are the key ones to change/swap/replace?

And second, with respect to the questions I asked in the previous paragraph, I'd like to get a better idea about which brand of NOS (old ones in other words) tubes will give me the kind of sound I would prefer most. Many AK'ers are already well-aware of this, but I love a warm, musical sound. I hate neutral-sounding gear (I 'm referring to the cold, lifeless, overly-analytical-sounding stuff). I also like smoothness, dynamics, and a nice, effortless bass. My 2000x has a sound that's not far from where I want it. In terms of warmth and musicality, the 2000x was right on, so I'd like to continue in that direction.

And third, I will surely want to try some different 7591A's in there at some point, so I was curious what some of you feel is your favorite one and why (NOS originals, I mean).

Thanks in advance... And furthermore, this thing kicks serious booty. I listen to a lot of complicated music, but when I say complicated, I mean that the SOUNDSTAGE is complicated, either with lots of multi-tracked parts or simply a lot of instruments/vocals involved in the recording, and this has always been one of the W90's strong points, and apparently the Fisher's as well. Does a great job with the "Truck Turner" soundtrack.

Getting there... By the way, holy cow, does Bob Marley's "Redemption Song" sound good with this receiver... ALL Bob Marley stuff sounds good. REALLY-good.

GT -

I also have very limited experience with tubes in that I got my 800B just a couple of months before you got your 800C - and I didn't even deal with rolling tubes and caps until just right before you got it. I was very lucky to have found Sony6060 (as mentioned by Audiodon) in my area who can rebuild and tune one of these amps in his sleep. He came over to my house and I was able to listen to different caps and tubes in different positions and hear their sonic differences.

I agree with Audiodon about the Westinghouse tubes. While I actually didn't use them in either the phono section or the phase inverter section, they definitely gave me pause. They really sounded good. However, I felt some Brimar CV4004s which Sony6060 highly recommended, edged out the Westinghouses in the phono section, as did some Tung Sol 12AX7 square getters in the phase inverter positions. There was a definite difference in the sound of the receiver when tubes were rolled in the phase inverter section.

We experimented with tubes in the input section, which would affect the AUX. The RCA tall blackplate was the best sounding there. Tried a Mullard 12AX7 there, and was initially almost persuaded by a kind of smoky allure. But it's dazzle faded after awhile, and I stayed with the RCA. I'm going to be buying another RCA tall blackplate from Sony6060 for the tone amp.

INTERESTINGLY, rolling capacitors really made a difference in the sound. Sony asked me to listen to some Russion PIO K40y-9's leading to the power grids, but the receiver sounded tight and constrained as though it was fighting to get the sound out. Then we put in some NOS ERO FOL ll's, at .12uF, which REALLY opened up the sound. Everything was cool and I put up a thread (which I will put up a link to in a second), but then in one of the pics it was noticed that a power tube was red plating - which we found out later was due to one of the ERO caps leaking. Then we tried some other ERO caps at .047uF, which did not sound as good at the ones at .12uF. So right now we are waiting on another set that is coming in the mail that is at .15uF and hopefully everything will be well again!

I would be interested to know what coupling caps you have going to the power grids. Maybe Tinkerbelle might know, because, I'm telling you the different caps really change the sound. Caps in other positions going to the phono, input, and tone amp sections, also influence the sound. We stayed with the Russian PIOs in the phono and input sections, while we used a Sprague in the tone amp section.

I was very fortunate to have met Sony6060, who lives in my area, and who very patiently let me listen to many different combinations of tubes and caps. His knowledge is extensive, and the only reason I can offer any opinion on this subject, is because he saved me years of guesswork and investigation by allowing me to audition in a single afternoon, different caps and tubes that he already knew about. Certainly, others may enjoy other tubes, caps, etc, in that what is a pleasing sound is individual to one's ears. Sony and I happened to concur on what we heard.

BTW, I think that both you and I like a similar musical sound, based on our conversations and what you posted here. So, I thought this would be helpful. I would also love to know what you already have in your receiver, because it sounds like you are already getting a slammin' sound!

Here is the link where Sony discusses what we did with the 800B that afternoon:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=545523

Best -

Gannon

 

[Gang-Twanger]

GT -

I also have very limited experience with tubes in that I got my 800B just a couple of months before you got your 800C - and I didn't even deal with rolling tubes and caps until just right before you got it. I was very lucky to have found Sony6060 (as mentioned by Audiodon) in my area who can rebuild and tune one of these amps in his sleep. He came over to my house and I was able to listen to different caps and tubes in different positions and hear their sonic differences.

I agree with Audiodon about the Westinghouse tubes. While I actually didn't use them in either the phono section or the phase inverter section, they definitely gave me pause. They really sounded good. However, I felt some Brimar CV4004s which Sony6060 highly recommended, edged out the Westinghouses in the phono section, as did some Tung Sol 12AX7 square getters in the phase inverter positions. There was a definite difference in the sound of the receiver when tubes were rolled in the phase inverter section.

We experimented with tubes in the input section, which would affect the AUX. The RCA tall blackplate was the best sounding there. Tried a Mullard 12AX7 there, and was initially almost persuaded by a kind of smoky allure. But it's dazzle faded after awhile, and I stayed with the RCA. I'm going to be buying another RCA tall blackplate from Sony6060 for the tone amp.

INTERESTINGLY, rolling capacitors really made a difference in the sound. Sony asked me to listen to some Russion PIO K40y-9's leading to the power grids, but the receiver sounded tight and constrained as though it was fighting to get the sound out. Then we put in some NOS ERO FOL ll's, at .12uF, which REALLY opened up the sound. Everything was cool and I put up a thread (which I will put up a link to in a second), but then in one of the pics it was noticed that a power tube was red plating - which we found out later was due to one of the ERO caps leaking. Then we tried some other ERO caps at .047uF, which did not sound as good at the ones at .12uF. So right now we are waiting on another set that is coming in the mail that is at .15uF and hopefully everything will be well again!

I would be interested to know what coupling caps you have going to the power grids. Maybe Tinkerbelle might know, because, I'm telling you the different caps really change the sound. Caps in other positions going to the phono, input, and tone amp sections, also influence the sound. We stayed with the Russian PIOs in the phono and input sections, while we used a Sprague in the tone amp section.

I was very fortunate to have met Sony6060, who lives in my area, and who very patiently let me listen to many different combinations of tubes and caps. His knowledge is extensive, and the only reason I can offer any opinion on this subject, is because he saved me years of guesswork and investigation by allowing me to audition in a single afternoon, different caps and tubes that he already knew about. Certainly, others may enjoy other tubes, caps, etc, in that what is a pleasing sound is individual to one's ears. Sony and I happened to concur on what we heard.

BTW, I think that both you and I like a similar musical sound, based on our conversations and what you posted here. So, I thought this would be helpful. I would also love to know what you already have in your receiver, because it sounds like you are already getting a slammin' sound!

Here is the link where Sony discusses what we did with the 800B that afternoon:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=545523

Best -

Gannon

Thanks... Not sure what kind they are, but Tinkerbelle would know (I can't get to it at the moment... Planning on moving it to a different spot shortly, and that'll be a better time to go lifting/tilting it up so I can see underneath where the caps are located. They're square and about the size of a piece of Bazooka bubblegum, and the color is kind of a dull shade of blue-green/teal if I remember correctly. She would know which ones they are, but yeah, I've heard that about cap-types sounding different (something I happen to agree with), and I've experienced it myself with my guitars (and wiring various types of caps to the tone-pot), where the right cap makes a VERY-noticeable difference (I actually have two caps, an orange drop and an old PIO, wired to the single tone-pot on my main guitar with a push-pull switch so I can choose between them... The PIO is MUCH-more-open and musical-sounding).

At least I can swap preamp tubes on the 800c without re-biasing (Right?), although I assume that's not the case with the power tubes (It'd be cool if it was though). I agree that the RCA long black plates are my best bet for the spot/s that affects the AUX input, but I would also like to try some cap-rolling as well. I'm thinking about what's gonna' work best with my W90's, and not just what type of sound I'M looking to get. The W90's feed off of the warmth.