Nagaoka/Ortofon Cartridge Dilemma

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lucascgc

New Member
Hello Audiokarma, long time lurker first time poster

I'm going thru a bit of a dilemma regarding my choice of cartridge. For years I used a Nagaoka MP-110 on my vintage JVC turntable, for fairly good results. This year however instead of just swapping in a new needle I decided to try something new and get a Ortofon 2M Red.

This has been a frustrating experience, however. I got maybe a few days of good sound off of it. I've had constant tracking issues. I put the Nagaoka back on, and even tho its needle is extremely worn it sounded better than the Ortofon.

But here comes the kicker: I don't really like the sound profile of the Nagaoka. It's too bass-heavy and punchy for me, I prefer the more analytical, transparent sound of the Ortofon. And that's why I find myself wondering if there's another cartridge that would suit me better, or if I'm doing something wrong.

What do you guys think I should do? Thanks in advance.
 
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Interesting. From needle drops only, I vastly prefer the MP110 over the 2M red all day long. I've also heard the red in a store demo and I did not care for it at all, nor the blue. I get where you coming from though as far as the bass with the MP110. I'm not sure your budget, but I would give a Denon DL-110 a try (I looked around the web and found a deal on mine). A nice balance of warmth and natural sounding clarity with a nice big soundstage. It's my current favorite.
 
The MP 110 may sound better than the Red because it is, or you simply like the Nagaoka sound. But you go on to say you don’t care for the Nagaoka sound, yet you used the MP 110 for years.

You could buy the MP 200 stylus off eBay for $133. It was a boron cantilever and is much improved over the MP 110, which is a great entry level cartridge in its own right.

I am currently comparing the MP 110, DL 110 and MP 200. The 200 has the least hours on it and is already far ahead of the other two. It is much more dynamic and transparent than its little brother. Faster and smoother with a much bigger soundstage.

Just curious on your table, arm and your skill at setting up a cartridge. Can you comment on that?
 
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bobins08 said:
The MP 110 may sound better than the Red because it is, or you simply like the Nagaoka sound. But you go on to say you don’t care for the Nagaoka sound, yet you used the MP 110
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I mean, comparing it to my misadjusted 2M Red. And I agree, the MP 110 simply is a better cartridge, and I liked it just fine all those years. It tracks better, has a bigger soundstage and picks up zero surface noise most of the time. It's just that the sound profile of the 2M red fits my particular taste so much better that despite its shortcomings I still prefer it over the mp110.

My table is an identical licensed version of a JVC QL-F4 with its stock arm, which isn't exactly top shelf material. I can't upgrade that until next year tho, which in turn makes me unsure about upgrading to a much better cartridge right now (I really like the idea of a mp200 stylus, however)

I use a regular overhang protactor, a stylus pressure gauge and an empty disc for anti-skating. I have one huge problem tho, which is my utter incompetence using precision tools. But that never stopped me from getting a great sound out of the Nagaoka.
 
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If you like the sound of the 2M Red, 2M Blue stylus could be a great upgrade, though it's a bit more costly. If you prefer the 2M Red to MP-110, I think you'd probably also prefer AT95E to the MP110. Very cheap, and down the line upgradeable with aftermarket stylus options. Plain AT95E costs something like $40. MP-150 or MP-200 stylus for the MP-110 could be a good route as well, BUT if you're not big fan of how the MP-110 sounds, then maybe not.

EDIT: Also look up LPgear CF3600LE - no experience with that one, but the AT91 / AT3600 it's based on is an excellent cartridge and that .3x.7 elliptical looks like a nice upgrade to the stock conical stylus. That one should be really good bang for the buck.
 
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Nagaoka Dynamic compliance is rated at 6cu, while the 2M series (including both the blue and the Red) is rated at 20cu.

a) I'm not surprised at all to find that the 2M are more susceptible to "accidents", and
b) Those will be hard pressed to match the same tonearm, so if the Nagaoka 110 worked well with your TT, the Red (and blue) will probably have issues.

With this information, the Denon DL110 is probably a good option.
 
nkorah said:
Nagaoka Dynamic compliance is rated at 6cu, while the 2M series (including both the blue and the Red) is rated at 20cu.

a) I'm not surprised at all to find that the 2M are more susceptible to "accidents", and
b) Those will be hard pressed to match the same tonearm, so if the Nagaoka 110 worked well with your TT, the Red (and blue) will probably have issues.

With this information, the Denon DL110 is probably a good option.
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I'm pretty sure the Nagaoka compliance is @ 100Hz like most Japanese mfgs specify it. Unfortunately there's no way to directly convert it to the more usable 10Hz figure, but it's probably somewhere between 10-15.
 
muovimies said:
I'm pretty sure the Nagaoka compliance is @ 100Hz like most Japanese mfgs specify it. Unfortunately there's no way to directly convert it to the more usable 10Hz figure, but it's probably somewhere between 10-15.
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Maybe - but it's still on the very rigid side of cartridges. I've measured the similar 150 to be about 9cu. Can't see it working right on the same tonearms on which the springy 2M works.
 
+1 for the AT, but I'd start further up the line with the AT120e. Some of JVC's best cartridges were made by Audio Technica.
 
Wow guys, thanks, that's a ton of information.

Yeah, my dream upgrade would be a 2M Blue in this case I think, but I'm a little queasy about overspending on a cartridge for a turntable that probably won't be able to take full advantage of it. Same for the Denon. However, I also feel like buying a much cheaper cartridge would be ultimately a step down.

Is the MP-200 as bassy as the 110? I'm starting to think that a mid-range Audio-Technica would be a good fit for me, if it sounds similar to the 2M as you guys are saying.

Also I'm wondering if there's things I should be considering that I'm not right now, like their compliance, as mentioned.

EDIT: I read some on compliance and yeah, I'd f-ing bet my tonearm is pretty heavy, it's a mid-level turntable from 1979 after all.

EDIT 2: on the table's manual they have tonearm weight as between 14.5g ~ 21g including headshell, which seems like a crazy wide range to me
 
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I had an Ortofon 2M Red that come with a JVC TT and I found it rather delicate (both in use and in sound) for that TT. I too screwed mine up but it was entirely my fault or it was the red wine I was enjoying was at fault.

Nkorah bought up a good point regarding compliance. Your tonearm seems to be made more for the likes of Denon DL103 which is going to sound more punchier and bolder than your Nagaoka. I would be curious how different a Nagaoka might sound as you work your way up the food chain.

I'm a Denon 103 fan boy but I do understand that they lack a certain finesse. Just to ditto what others have said I think an Audio-Technica would have more of the sound your after and AT must have a model that would match the mass of your tone arm.

Michael
 
I've never heard a 2M red, but there seem to be a lot of people that don't like it. My goto cartridge has been the Ortofon OM30 for many years, so that's my standard of comparison. I recently got to play with an MP110 for a few days and was really impressed. That said, it wants a lot higher mass arm than what i associate with most Ortofons, and certainly the OM30. If you want to do a little experiment, get some Blue Tac and a penny. Blue Tac it right to the top of the headshell. That will add 2.5-3 grams and probably increase the effective mass of the arm by about the same amount. Rebalance the arm, set the tracking force and listen again. Also watch the cantilever to be sure you're still handling warps OK. That should move the arm resonance down and maybe improve your loose bass. If that works, add an extra cartridge weight. Or, leave the penny just for effect.
 
lucascgc said:
Yeah, my dream upgrade would be a 2M Blue

EDIT 2: on the table's manual they have tonearm weight as between 14.5g ~ 21g including headshell, which seems like a crazy wide range to me
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a) IMHO, the Red and the Blue are nothing to dream about. The Red is lacklustre, even for it's low price, and the Blue is "nice" and much too expansive for it's quality.

b) This isn't the the weight of the tonearm. Not even the Effective Mass of the tonearm. Those numbers refers to the compatible weight of the cartridges. Since the headshell probably weight some 10-12 Gr' (there's no indication) - it says that the arm can accommodate cartridges weighting between 4 Gr' to some 12 Gr' - which ultimately tells us nothing useful.
 
lucascgc said:
Wow guys, thanks, that's a ton of information.

Yeah, my dream upgrade would be a 2M Blue in this case I think, but I'm a little queasy about overspending on a cartridge for a turntable that probably won't be able to take full advantage of it. Same for the Denon. However, I also feel like buying a much cheaper cartridge would be ultimately a step down.

Is the MP-200 as bassy as the 110? I'm starting to think that a mid-range Audio-Technica would be a good fit for me, if it sounds similar to the 2M as you guys are saying.
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I haven't owned the Nagaokas, but I recently read a cartridge-by-cartridge review on the range from MP100 to MP200. The reviewer seemed to think bass quality was improved moving up the range, while quantity was pretty much the same. If the bass is loose it can easily sound overblown if there's a bit much of it to begin with, so the MP-200 would probably help some, but if you don't like the tonality of MP-110, seems a bit risky to upgrade within the range and expect something much different.

I don't know about the stylus quality on the bottom of the range Nagaokas (MP-100/MP-110) but they are bonded, just like the 2M Red and cheapest Audio-Technica offerings. Moving to cheap ATs (AT95E, the elliptical LPgear offerings) is probably not much of a step-down, at least nowhere near as much as the price would seem to indicate. The AT range is excellent value for money, while both the 2M and Nagaoka MP seem overpriced in comparison. Going by stylus alone, comparable models would roughly be 2M Blue - MP-150 - AT120E. The Nagaoka cartridge line used to be pretty good value, especially the MP-200 but since their gigantic price hike a few years ago, now they are quite the opposite. The MP-200 stylus you can still get for quite cheap for what it is - AFAIK it's the cheapest stylus with Boron cantilever around.

I think something you need to determine is also if you want to just buy once and be happy, or if you're interested in exploring the different makes and their models. Of all the cheap cartridges I've tried, the Audio-Technicas are my favourites, they just get the basics and important things so right that it's easy to not mind their short-comings. Moving higher up the range you get more finesse, better detail & tracking etc. but sometimes I feel you lose some of that inherent musical rightness while doing it.
 
nkorah said:
b) This isn't the the weight of the tonearm. Not even the Effective Mass of the tonearm. Those numbers refers to the compatible weight of the cartridges. Since the headshell probably weight some 10-12 Gr' (there's no indication) - it says that the arm can accommodate cartridges weighting between 4 Gr' to some 12 Gr' - which ultimately tells us nothing useful.
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Interesting, I did not know that. I'll say however that I got from other sources that this tonearm is medium to heavy. The table's original cartridge was a Pickering XSV 3000.

muovimies said:
I haven't owned the Nagaokas, but I recently read a cartridge-by-cartridge review on the range from MP100 to MP200. The reviewer seemed to think bass quality was improved moving up the range, while quantity was pretty much the same. If the bass is loose it can easily sound overblown if there's a bit much of it to begin with, so the MP-200 would probably help some, but if you don't like the tonality of MP-110, seems a bit risky to upgrade within the range and expect something much different.

I don't know about the stylus quality on the bottom of the range Nagaokas (MP-100/MP-110) but they are bonded, just like the 2M Red and cheapest Audio-Technica offerings. Moving to cheap ATs (AT95E, the elliptical LPgear offerings) is probably not much of a step-down, at least nowhere near as much as the price would seem to indicate. The AT range is excellent value for money, while both the 2M and Nagaoka MP seem overpriced in comparison. Going by stylus alone, comparable models would roughly be 2M Blue - MP-150 - AT120E. The Nagaoka cartridge line used to be pretty good value, especially the MP-200 but since their gigantic price hike a few years ago, now they are quite the opposite. The MP-200 stylus you can still get for quite cheap for what it is - AFAIK it's the cheapest stylus with Boron cantilever around.

I think something you need to determine is also if you want to just buy once and be happy, or if you're interested in exploring the different makes and their models. Of all the cheap cartridges I've tried, the Audio-Technicas are my favourites, they just get the basics and important things so right that it's easy to not mind their short-comings. Moving higher up the range you get more finesse, better detail & tracking etc. but sometimes I feel you lose some of that inherent musical rightness while doing it.
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I think the Nagaokas are still a great value, if you like what they do. They're pretty cheap to import from Japan, and you can easily compare them to cartridges supposed to be one level above from other manufacturers. But yeah, they're not really my thing.

I'm actually enjoying trying out different cartridges. It hasn't been since long that I've had the budget for it. My issue here has more to do with the fact that I'll probably overhaul my system in a year or two and I don't want to spend tons on a cart to later find out it's not a good fit for my new stuff.
 
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I measured the effective mass of the JVC arm on my QL-A2 (Similar but not identical to yours) and it was right around 20g with the 9.5g headshell I have. I don't think even the 2M, with it's lower compliance than the OM series, is a great match to the JVC. I think you'd get a better match out of one of the upgraded AT95e styli (or other lower compliance modern AT) if you want a more neutral sound than the Nagaoka.
 
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