Need a new TT- Denon DP300F or Music Hall MMF 2.2?

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DKnuska

New Member
Hey everyone! To make a long story short- I'm looking to replace my Audio Technica ATPL-120 w/ Shure M97xe cart. I've had the combo for almost two years and have nothing but problems with inner groove distortion (I started other threads about it in the past.) I don't know whether the used ATPL-120 was abused or maybe the cart just isn't compatible- no matter how I aligned the cart (per the alignment tool or per the TT instructions) there was always a problem. Since I spent so many hours trying to get the alignment right, I am now burnt out on doing it myself.

Basically, I need a new entry-level priced TT with a decent cart. I mostly listen to punk rock and 80's goth, just so you have an idea of what sound I want out of a new TT. Right now the only stereo I have is a Philips "mini hi-fi" system, but we all have to start somewhere right?

My budget is $500, no more. I know that won't get me the best, but that's what I can afford. I want one with a pre-installed cart and preferably a built in preamp. I'm looking at the Denon DP300F w/ Ortofon 2m Red cart from needledoctor and the Music Hall MMF 2.2 from Decibel Audio. They're both looking good to me, especially since I haven't listened to vinyl in a while.

I'm a little nervous about buying an automatic, since I hear that the returning arm is the first thing to break down. I've have never had experience with a belt-driven TT either. My ATPL was not automatic and it was direct drive, and I got used to that. I want a TT with a cart that is either super easy to align or comes properly installed and aligned out of the box. I spent the summer scouring garage sales for a nice looking used TT- and only found tables that had been through hell, then buried in the yard. I've decided want a new table.

Really, If anyone has experience with either tables/carts, please let me know what you think! OR if you have any other suggestions for me, those are totally welcome.

Please help me out! I really want to enjoy my vinyl again, and I really don't want to have to resort to just digital music. Please keep in mind that I can't afford more than $500, but I want it to sound better than some Ion or Emerson budget table.
 
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Always a tough choice. Though, reading your post, I'd say the Denon is the way to go for you. I also re-started my vinyl life with an ATPL120. I also had inner groove distortion. I eventually put an Audio Technica AT-95E cartridge on it and managed to tame it almost completely. The factory cartridge is a DJ unit and a piece of garbage from a tracking standpoint. Still...I upgraded to a Music Hall table (and since, a better Music Hall table) and have been a happy camper.

Now...to you...the Music Hall is a better table, the Denon has a better cartridge and a built in pre-amp which you stated you wanted. The MMF-2.2 does not have a built in amp. Plus the Ortofon 2M Red is a great little MM cartridge. Good enough that buying it alone might cure your tracking issues. But that's a different post.

So, though it may not sound as good as the Music Hall in the long run, the Denon is likely your best bet for now. Buy it, enjoy the very nice sounding 2M Red, and enjoy your records. In a few years when you strike it rich you can buy an audiophile table. :thmbsp:

Good luck whichever way you go.
 
Would you consider used? At your budget you could get a used Rega P3 or MMF-5 on Audiogon. For $125 you can turn that M97xE into something extraordinary with the Jico SAS stylus. It'll improve the sonics by a huge leap and will plain track any damn thing you throw at it!
 
1) Where are you located?

2) Is used ruled out? I really like the Music Hall MMF 5.1, and Rega P3. Also the solid as a rock and easy to set up and forget about it Technics SL-1200MKII. And there are others.

You could hit your budget, and even do so, with smart shopping, with a superior, slightly used outboard phono pre-amp.

Something to consider- sometimes, with an entry-level table, the only way to upgrade is sell it and buy something else.

With a step or two up from the basic, bare bones, budget deck, you get something that allows you to grow with it- by adding modifications, tweaks, upgrades. It allows some flexibility.
 
I used to have a MMF-5, which had the same arm as the MMF-2.2. I always thought it had a rich sound but somehow not so much of a rocker sound. Part of that was my other gear, but I wonder if the MMF-2.2 is going to come off a little lazy with the punk and goth. Anyone else here ever have an impression like this with the Music Hall or Pro-Ject turntables?
 
Hi guys.. Suggest MMF2.2 be tried with a (s/h) Shure M95 or V15-3 cart fitted with either a H/E stylus from Jico Japan or if funds permit a Jico SAS stylus on either cart.
Only drawback is that the 2.2's arm would probably need the accessory heavier counterweight due to the Shure's weight.
Handy on the MMF is the ability to easily raise arm height to suit the Shures.
I found that balancing tonearm (parallel with record surface of course) with the stylus tip approx 1 (one) mm above the record surface gave me the nicest VTA as far as musical performance goes.
It tracks enormously well at 1g as set using electronic scale.
I use the M95ed with a SAS after trying several other carts (inc AT440MLa) on a MMF and it is a great performing combination.
Once you add a speedbox 11 the dynamics etc really set it apart from many so called competitor turntables.
Finally a Shure's stylus interchangeability allows me to instantly fit my (Jico) elliptical stylus (cheapie) for older records which are better suited to the less revealing detail than the SAS would give.
Hey again it's just my opinion but all based on lots of trialling etc
Cheers!!
 
The MMF-2.2 actually rocks just fine dead stock. The Project 9 arm doesn't get it's fair share of appreciation. It is not a great arm, but it is a damn good one. I also find it is supremely easy to adjust and very cartridge tolerant.

No doubt the MMF-2.2 would be the better sounding of the two tables, even with it's stock Music Hall Tracker cartridge (which is not anywhere near as good as the sweet little 2M Red) it will outpace and rock the Denon. However the OP said he wanted a table with a built in pre-amp.

A well known site currently (with a name implying the medical treatment of sewing implements) currently has the Pro-Ject Debut III (almost the same table as the MMF-2.2) in white for $299. That's the sweet deal.
 
wow, thanks for all the advice, guys. :thmbsp:

thedelihaus said:
1) Where are you located?

2) Is used ruled out?
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I'm in Chicago. Used is not ruled out, but I just want to be sure that what I'm getting something that definitely wasn't abused. My ATPL120 was used before me and the longer I have it the more I notice it was probably owned by a DJ, otherwise I would just take the advice that slate1 and cairns4me suggested and buy that GREAT looking Jico replacement stylus. Im super intrigued by what I read about it, but in order to feel comfortable buying that, i would have to buy a new ATPL120.

I think I understand now that if I buy the Denon DP300F w/ the Ortofon red, thats the best that TT is going to get, right? I can't add on to it or upgrade it without buying a whole new table... hm.

Bob_in_OKC said:
I used to have a MMF-5, which had the same arm as the MMF-2.2. I always thought it had a rich sound but somehow not so much of a rocker sound. Part of that was my other gear, but I wonder if the MMF-2.2 is going to come off a little lazy with the punk and goth. Anyone else here ever have an impression like this with the Music Hall or Pro-Ject turntables?
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I was doing research on the Pro-Ject debut TT, and what I read did not sound like it was a good rock n roll TT. I'm sure there were several positive reviews for it, but when no one mentions what kind of music they're listening to, it makes it kind of difficult. One reviewer said almost the same exact thing you said- that the Pro-ject sounded "lazy" and I believe they called it "lifeless" too. Also, there's so much extra crap you have to buy with the Pro-ject TTs- speed box, preamp- I just got turned off. I would rather spend $500 and get it all in one package. ANYWAY- is the MMF 2.2 comparable to the Pro-ject debut, soundwise?

I'm not going to lie, when the ATPL w/ M97xe sounded good, it was GREAT. I loved how 12"s sounded before the 3rd or 4th song. I can't think of anything that would make me more mad than spending a bunch of cash and the new setup sounding worse than my current setup. I think I would jump out the window.

Socktown said:
No doubt the MMF-2.2 would be the better sounding of the two tables, even with it's stock Music Hall Tracker cartridge (which is not anywhere near as good as the sweet little 2M Red) it will outpace and rock the Denon. However the OP said he wanted a table with a built in pre-amp.
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If it is really going to be that much of a difference in sound, then I could buy the Music Hall 2.2 and get a Music Hall preamp at the store in Chicago, although it would cost me about $600, plus $60 in Chicago taxes. It sounds like I would also want to replace the cart when I got some money, but I don't particularly want to install that myself, given how well it turned out with my current TT. I looked at the manuals for each of the TTs, and the Music Hall looks much more complicated to set up than the Denon.

Before I read all the responses, I was leaning very much towards the Denon. Now, I'm not so sure.
 
In the context of what you want, I think I might agree with the choice of the DP300F. The built-in preamp won't likely be good enough to hold up to a better system if you get one, but you could upgrade to something like the Audio-Technica ATPEQ3 for $44 or move up to something like the Musical Fidelity V-LPS for $149 later.

With the MMF-2.2, I don't think it's as much the cartridge as some people do, but I'm a bit of a Goldring fan and the Music Hall cartridge is a Goldring. I have a Debut III with an Ortofon on it, and it's not all that much different.

Edit: When I originally posted this, I thought Music Hall's Tracker was a re-badged Goldring. Later I realized I don't know who makes that cartridge. Goldring is re-badging it, too.
 
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Bob_in_OKC said:
In the context of what you want, I think I might agree with the choice of the DP300F. The built-in preamp won't likely be good enough to hold up to a better system if you get one, but you could upgrade to something like the Audio-Technica ATPEQ3 for $44 or move up to something like the Musical Fidelity V-LPS for $149 later.
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Speaking of a better system, I found my dad's Sansui AU-101 receiver in my parents attic, and Sansui Tuner. There's also a big box wrapped with tape that says "Old Stereo" so I'll have to check that out. I know for a fact my parents threw out at least two turntables while I was growing up, so any vintage TT's might already be decaying somewhere in the ocean or a landfill. I bought a pair of Kenwood speakers at a garage sale this summer, so I guess I am thinking about upgrading at some point.

I might be moving long distance in the next couple of years, so I'm not sure if I want to get a bunch of really great equipment, only to sell it or leave it in storage in the US.

One thing I forgot about automatic tables- my first TT was an Emerson "nostalgia" combo TT/CD/cassette/Radio POS and I could NEVER get to the end of a 7" aka 45. The damn needle would always pick up before getting to the end of the record, and it drove me crazy. Would the Denon be similar?
 
I bought a new Music Hall mmf-2.2 two weeks ago

I needed a new turntable to mate with a new system I am building for my living room. Because I did not know what new equipment would sound like, I did not want to buy used. I wanted a entry level turntable, which I could use to listen to records now, and use as a reference system when and if I try to improve my system.

I have a friend who owns a stereo boutique shop and he stocked both a Rega P1 and the Music Hall mmf-2.2. my friend set them up so they played through the same amp and set of speakers. I used Herbie Mann's "In a Dingue II Bangue" from Herbie Mann's record "Brazil Once Again", a piece filed with complex Brazilian rythems and "Memphis Underground" from "Memphis Underground", a very early jazz-rock fusion piece. I also used Pete Fountain's "Tiger Rag" from his album "Music to Turn You On." I also have "Memphis Underground" on CD, so I am very familiar with that piece. I have been listening to the records on a Bang and Olufsen Beocenter 7700 with a new Soundsmith SMMC4 cartridge. The Band and Olufsen Beocenter has been replace with a Pioneer SA-8800 as my main amp after the Beocenter burned out because I stupidly crossed the output wires going to the speakers.

The Music Hall comes with a cartridge that is labeled "Tracker." It can be found at a couple of internet sellers. The Rega came with the Ortofon OM5. OM5e, I think. I would play one piece on one table, then immediately switch to the other table and listen to the same piece.

My impressions:

Both tables were dead quiet. Both spun close enough to true spin rate of 33 1/3 that I couldn't hear any variation. I found the Ortofon too bright. It was very detailed, but it seemed to me that it lacked "musicality." That is to say, all of the instruments and notes were there, but the recording never quite came together as a whole. A good table for analytical work, but not necessarily for general listening.

The Music Hall Tracker seemed very detailed. However, while listening to each of the tracks for a minute, the music just seem to suck me in. I could still hear the details, but the details seemed to be a part of the whole, rather than different instruments seperaltely playing different notes. There was a wholeness that was missing from the Rega with the Ortofon OM5.

On both tables, Pete Fountain's clarinet sounded nice and woody, so call it a draw on that instrument.

I went with the Music Hall, primarily because the Ortofon was just too bright. In fact, it was beginning to give me a headache by the time I was done listening. Now, note, Herbie Mann is a flutist and his music is bright anyway. But that is what I listen to and that is what I want to play.

Remember, this is my choice, based on my ears, with my music.

Hope this helps.
 
I'd camp out on our Craigslist (I'm in Chicago as well). There aren't really any fantastic ones on their now but they do pop up. If the SL-1400 on there was cheaper, it would be a good deal and probably fit your music taste well, as well as being direct drive like you're used to. And on Craigslist you no longer have me to compete with because I'm very much set as far as TTs ago. Unless a Thorens TD-124 for cheap pops up :)

Also, Saturday Audio has an ok selection of used tables. Often fewer than Decibel but of a better quality...though decibel gets the occasional good one. Of the two you list, I'd go with the Music Hall. It just 'looks' to be a better table, but that is all I know about it. Certainly looks to have a decent arm on it.

Don't get me wrong..there's nothing at all wrong with buying a new turntable, but at your price range you can often get into a better quality table by going with a used one, be it a recently made one or vintage. You can also search Audiogon for stuff for sale locally (better selection of recently made but used), and there's AK's own Bartertown, which is available to subscribers. I bought a Lenco off of Bartertown just a few weeks ago.

Hope you get that vinyl spinning. It would suck to have to go hang out at Exit or Neo every time you want to hear goth on vinyl.
 
The Marantz 6270Q on Craigslist looks promising. :scratch2:
chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/ele/1983676886.html
 
Bob_in_OKC said:
With the MMF-2.2, I don't think it's as much the cartridge as some people do, but I'm a bit of a Goldring fan and the Music Hall cartridge is a Goldring.
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I was told that the Goldring Elektra sounds a tad bright in the Music Hall tables. Would you agree? I like a brighter sound that goes with 80s synth pop, so I'm wondering if I should go for a Music Hall/Goldring.

Is it bright as in sibiliant? Or is it bright as in "sounds like Donald Fagen's 'Nightfly' LP? I prefer the latter of course...lol
 
Jody Thornton said:
I was told that the Goldring Elektra sounds a tad bright in the Music Hall tables. Would you agree? I like a brighter sound that goes with 80s synth pop, so I'm wondering if I should go for a Music Hall/Goldring.

Is it bright as in sibiliant? Or is it bright as in "sounds like Donald Fagen's 'Nightfly' LP? I prefer the latter of course...lol
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I think it might be mistracking that people are hearing. The Elektra has less mass and less compliance than their better cartridges, like the 1012GX. It might have been bright and I missed noticing it, but I suspect it just needs to be run with a little extra tracking force to sound its best.
 
JohnVF said:
Hope you get that vinyl spinning. It would suck to have to go hang out at Exit or Neo every time you want to hear goth on vinyl.
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ha! yeah, really. As much as I love going out, sometimes I need to listen to Sisters by myself. Also, half the time I go to the Exit its full of normal jerks waiting to hear Pantera and looking for a cheap imitation of a suicidegirl.

I haven't checked out Decibel's used stuff and to be honest, they come off as pricey for the sake of pricey. I'll probably still get up there (I'm on the south side) and check it out just for an excuse to hit up Reckless. Saturday Audio had great stuff on the site, but more than a few TT's were already sold. Audiogon may be the place to get it... we'll see.

I've read a couple reviews of the Tracker cartridge that comes with the MMF 2.2 and a couple mentioned inner groove distortion. My eye twitches even thinking about it.

Basically, it comes down to if you guys think the DP300F isn't going to be better sounding that what my current TT/Cart SHOULD sound like, then I will wait a couple more months and shell out the clams for a Music Hall- with a better cart. One more question regarding the MMF 2.2- will I need a SPEED BOX with that thing too? Some reviewers mentioned getting that. This $500 budget is turning into an $800 one. :scratch2:
 
I think the inner groove distortion probably shouldn't be such an issue with any of these turntables, if set up accurately. I had a Music Hall MMF-5, which had the same arm as the MMF-2.2 and it didn't have IGD issues. I had a Goldring 2200 on it and eventually cartridges higher up the Goldring ladder, though...not a Music Hall Tracker. Wow & flutter could be an issue for some people, though. The Audio-Technica's W&F spec is bad and there are some who say so is that of the Music Hall and the Denon...although they're certainly better than the AT on that issue.

I'd say the Music Hall will have a nice sound to it and is a turntable I wouldn't mind having. For my purposes, it would be a no-brainer compared to the AT. But we all have different priorities, like price, convenience, sound quality, build quality, looks, etc. I also would think for me the Denon would be a no-brainer over the AT. But that's still based on my own priorities.
 
I have the Denon and it's been working just fine for the past year, quiet, excellent suspension, much better at vibration suppression than my DD Technics SL-2000. I really was surprised at how good the Denon was at this. The automatic operation has not had any problems.
 
DKnuska said:
ha! yeah, really. As much as I love going out, sometimes I need to listen to Sisters by myself. Also, half the time I go to the Exit its full of normal jerks waiting to hear Pantera and looking for a cheap imitation of a suicidegirl.

I haven't checked out Decibel's used stuff and to be honest, they come off as pricey for the sake of pricey. I'll probably still get up there (I'm on the south side) and check it out just for an excuse to hit up Reckless. Saturday Audio had great stuff on the site, but more than a few TT's were already sold. Audiogon may be the place to get it... we'll see.

I've read a couple reviews of the Tracker cartridge that comes with the MMF 2.2 and a couple mentioned inner groove distortion. My eye twitches even thinking about it.

Basically, it comes down to if you guys think the DP300F isn't going to be better sounding that what my current TT/Cart SHOULD sound like, then I will wait a couple more months and shell out the clams for a Music Hall- with a better cart. One more question regarding the MMF 2.2- will I need a SPEED BOX with that thing too? Some reviewers mentioned getting that. This $500 budget is turning into an $800 one. :scratch2:
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I was at Decibel earlier this evening and they didn't have anything to speak of. Nothing better than what you're looking at...and after this evening, that place is officially off my watch-list. I sat there and watched them sell a pair of used white van speakers to a guy. First..why were they on the floor? Why did they take them in? A place that knows its gear would not take a pair of white vans on trade, and if they knew what they were, they'd not have put them out. It's bad business and shows they don't care for their customers.
The lone salesman hadn't even heard of the Harbeth speakers that they are now a dealer for. I haven't been there in a while and have to say, it's kind of a joke. I would not recommend dealing with them unless you really know what you want and don't need an ounce of help from their staff.

(I met a couple non-imitation Suicide Girls (out in LA) and they're nicer in person than the typical person you run into at Exit).
 
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