Need a new TT- Denon DP300F or Music Hall MMF 2.2?

I'll echo johnda's comments. I got mine about the same time and have had no problems with any aspect of it. Only proviso is I haven't used the built in phono pre....never even experimented with it. At the price point for a new tt I think it's great value.
 
i FINALLY got the Denon DP300F with an Ortofon Red cart from needledoctor. It took a while and I had to sell $300 worth of records and a few CD's on ebay, but I finally got it, set it up, and have listened to about 2 hours worth of music with it.

I like it, but I don't love it. :worried: I STILL have the same inner groove distortion problems on some records- the last song on the LP STILL never sounds as good as the first two. (Maybe I just don't know what IGD actually sounds like.) they installed and aligned the cart at the place I bought it from, and I double checked it with the alignment protractor that came with my m97xe, and it was more or less straight with that (I didn't look that hard because it was in low light).

I'm running at 1.8 grams, what is suggested in the Ortofon specs that came with it. When I put on a record and don't turn on the stereo, just put the stylus on the spinning record and listen- there is way more sound coming from the needle than when I used to test that on my ATPL w/m97xe. I'm running at the right weight, why would it do that?

The counterweight is set correctly, the anti-skate is set as accurately as it's gonna be, the table is level, I THINK it's aligned correctly and I trusted needledoctor to do it right.

Do you guys think that maybe the stylus needs "break-in" time before it will sound best? I'm not sure if that is a myth or not.
 
DKnuska said:
i FINALLY got the Denon DP300F with an Ortofon Red cart from needledoctor. It took a while and I had to sell $300 worth of records and a few CD's on ebay, but I finally got it, set it up, and have listened to about 2 hours worth of music with it.

I like it, but I don't love it. :worried: I STILL have the same inner groove distortion problems on some records- the last song on the LP STILL never sounds as good as the first two. (Maybe I just don't know what IGD actually sounds like.) they installed and aligned the cart at the place I bought it from, and I double checked it with the alignment protractor that came with my m97xe, and it was more or less straight with that (I didn't look that hard because it was in low light).

I'm running at 1.8 grams, what is suggested in the Ortofon specs that came with it. When I put on a record and don't turn on the stereo, just put the stylus on the spinning record and listen- there is way more sound coming from the needle than when I used to test that on my ATPL w/m97xe. I'm running at the right weight, why would it do that?

The counterweight is set correctly, the anti-skate is set as accurately as it's gonna be, the table is level, I THINK it's aligned correctly and I trusted needledoctor to do it right.

Do you guys think that maybe the stylus needs "break-in" time before it will sound best? I'm not sure if that is a myth or not.
Click to expand...

Regarding the inner groove distortion, one possibility is that the records were previously damaged by playback on a very cheap turntable and/or a badly misaligned or damaged stylus. I've run into a few used records that exhibit such groove damage. Are you experiencing IGD on ALL records?

Is 1.8 grams the maximum recommended VTF that Ortofon suggests? If not, try tracking at the maximum VTF. Mistracking (and groove damage) is more likely to occur when tracking too light. I adjust virtually all of my cartridges to run at maximum recommended VTF. By doing this, I get better sound and incidence of mistracking and distortion is totally eliminated.

If there is a "break in" period, it's never been noticeable to me in 40 years of spinning records with countless new cartridges & styli. In my experience, it'll either sound good or not right out of the box.
 
cactuscowboy said:
Are you experiencing IGD on ALL records?

Is 1.8 grams the maximum recommended VTF that Ortofon suggests?
Click to expand...

So far, none of the songs at the end of one side of a record sound as good as the ones at the beginning. (unless its a 12" 45rpm where the songs dont come within an inch of the center label) Some records sound worse than others, and all of them have been played on one of my last 2 turntables, one of which was a p-mount and and the other which I had issues with IGD from the beginning.

I think 1.8 grams is the only number they give in the booklet.

Either way, I'm disappointed. Either my records are damaged, the TT is not set up correctly like I was told it would be, or maybe vinyl just doesn't live up to my expectations.
 
DKnuska said:
So far, none of the songs at the end of one side of a record sound as good as the ones at the beginning. (unless its a 12" 45rpm where the songs dont come within an inch of the center label) Some records sound worse than others, and all of them have been played on one of my last 2 turntables, one of which was a p-mount and and the other which I had issues with IGD from the beginning.

I think 1.8 grams is the only number they give in the booklet.

Either way, I'm disappointed. Either my records are damaged, the TT is not set up correctly like I was told it would be, or maybe vinyl just doesn't live up to my expectations.
Click to expand...

Here's the specs I found on the Ortofon Red:

•Tracking force range: 1,6-2,0g (16-20 mN)
Click to expand...

I would definitely adjust VTF to 2.0 grams. That may make an audible difference or not, but it will certainly reduce chances of mistracking & distortion.

One would hope that the dealer set up your new cartridge correctly, but you might want to double-check. Look in the owner's manual and see what Denon recommends for overhang distance and alignment procedure. Learning how to do this set-up and alignment on your own is a good thing.

Are the records meticulously clean? Is the stylus clean? It doesn't take but a small dustball, stray cat hair, or bit of gunk on a stylus to completely screw up the sound.

If you have a new unplayed record (or preferably several) give them a spin, after double-checking alignment. If the IGD disappears, you might consider the sad likelihood your other records have groove damage.

I can't speak to your expectations of what vinyl should sound like, but FWIW, I've practically no problems with IGD, using many different turntables and cartridges over the past 40 years. The only time it's an issue is with a used record that's suffered from groove damage.
 
I have an Ortofon OM-5E that I've been running at 2.0 grams today, after having had it at 1.9 grams for quite some time. I'm going to leave it at 2.0, given the weight that has been added to the sound. I do occasionally hear issues with the inner groove but since it's probably only 1 percent of the time I figure it's like cactuscowboy says...used/damaged records.
 
ugh, another late night with my record player... trying to figure out if the alignment is right. (I bought a new one so I could spend late nights listening, not setting the damn thing up!!)

OK, so the manual says "To achieve required overhang, mount in such a way that the stylus tip is positioned about 1 ft/45 mm from the edge of the head shell's mount surface (the rubber washer), as shown on the diagram below. (The overhang for this player should be 0.75 ft/19 mm.)"

WHAT?!?!? Is the overhang 45 mm or 19 mm?! I cannot imagine it being 19 mm from the rubber washer to the tip of the stylus, there is NO way the cart will move back that far. But why does every website I go to that gives specs for the DP300F's overhang say 19mm? I tried to look up a diagram that would show me what I needed to know to no avail.

I took out my Shure alignment protractor, and you know what? I have no idea how to use it. I think the cart looks pretty good how it is, but then I shouldn't be getting the IGD. Am I supposed to look at it from the top and line it up that way? Or do I get my eyeline parallel to the surface of the platter and make sure the cantilever is straight with the lines on the protractor?
 
Overhang isn't the distance from the stylus to the washer, it's the distance from the spindle to the stylus if you swing the arm over to the spindle. With the Shure protractor, put it on the spindle and swing it around to where you can set the stylus tip on the inner alignment point on the protractor. Check to see if the cartridge is parallel to the grid lines. Then move the protractor so you can set the stylus tip on the outer point and see if it's parallel there, too.
 
The owner's manual ( page 6 ) has an illustration on the correct cartridge overhang.

It is 45mm from the tip of the stylus to the gasket at the back of the headshell.

Hope this helps!:music:
 
i hope you guys will be awake for a little while because I'm going to take pictures and upload them. I want to see what you think about how it looks, because it looks good to me.

thanks a lot for all the help!
 
Take a look at it from this angle...

5064155948_c29e6bf275.jpg
 
I have a 4.1 megapixel camera, which apparently sucks at taking close up photos. Sorry guys, these are the best I could get.

DSCF0675.jpg


DSCF0678.jpg





and Balifly- check out the manual because it says 45mm (which makes total sense) and on the same page in the same paragraph, my manual says 19mm also. :scratch2:
 
In looking at the photo on the inner point more closely, it seems you would need to rotate the cartridge to face more inward. But on the outer point you would need to rotate it more outward. Apparently the Shure protractor isn't going to work.
 
DSCF0679.jpg


OK so I did the above, and measured it exactly as your diagram shows, and yeah its 19mm. I had no idea that was how to measure overhang and seen anything like that before.
 
Bob_in_OKC said:
In looking at the photo on the inner point more closely, it seems you would need to rotate the cartridge to face more inward. But on the outer point you would need to rotate it more outward. Apparently the Shure protractor isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
I think it looked like I would have to move it one way for the A point and another way for the B point as well.

It looks like the distance from the stylus to the rubber washer is slightly more than 45mm. I almost don't want to adjust it because if it doesn't work I'll just second guess myself. The 52mm rule on my m97xe never made a difference.
 
I agree with not moving it. Your tonearm is apparently not designed for the same alignment points as the Shure protractor. The fact that it's off at the two points by the same amount but in opposite directions is probably a good sign. I'd agree with the earlier advice to set the tracking force at 2.0 grams and then I'd call it a day. I do believe there's a little something to be gained in some break-in time, though.
 
Thanks a whole lot, Bob. I am going to just forget about it for now and call needledoctor on monday. I changed it to 2 grams a few hours ago and spun some brand new vinyl- still some IGD. Bleh.

I just want to listen to my records without ruining them. I haven't enjoyed vinyl in about a year, and I did all that work just to get another table. I guess if this is the worst thing that happens to me, I'm pretty lucky. Whatever. Have a good night everyone.
 
Bob_in_OKC said:
I agree with not moving it. Your tonearm is apparently not designed for the same alignment points as the Shure protractor. The fact that it's off at the two points by the same amount but in opposite directions is probably a good sign. I'd agree with the earlier advice to set the tracking force at 2.0 grams and then I'd call it a day. I do believe there's a little something to be gained in some break-in time, though.
Click to expand...

What Bob said, leave it as it is for now.

Allow for approximately 30 - 50 hours for the cartridge/stylus break in period.

Sit back and enjoy the music !:music:
 
Have you downloaded one of the universal protractors and tried it? From the photo above, I wouldn't calculate the overhang until the arm was more towards the spindle besides.
 
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