I've been backtracking recently because I've realized that after a certain threshold- maybe a pretty high threshold but not that extravagant- I just don't enjoy the music anymore than before. So I'm balancing the 'livability' of my system, with sound quality. Even the Quads that I love so much, aren't in my main system, because I think they're ugly and the main system is in my living room, and I don't want to be the crazy stereo guy any more than I already am. Honestly, my nightmare is to become one of those guys who worries about the ringing of a picture frame in the room, or the height in millimeters of the cones supporting the CD player. I've learned, that that is just not me. I get zero enjoyment out of fretting that much about the tiny things. Much of that, I figured out with that Leben- it was such a big change, compared to all the little ones, in favor of pure, non-tweaky, enjoyment.
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Neil Young frustrated with Digital Quality
- Thread starter CharlieBee
- Start date
Scuzzer
Fixed Bias
Too late! Heck I'm the crazy stereo guy for my group of friends and acquaintances and I don't even have a dozen turntables laying around. I do have more vinyl than I know what to do with and a console in every conceivable place in the house. Except the kitchen, never could figure out a way to shoehorn one in there.
Then again most of those same people think I'm weird just because I listen to (and enjoy) classical music.
Freak.
As for MP3- I honestly don't think that they sound that bad, if of a decently high bit rate. They're not ideal, but I use them while traveling. I'm somehow not bothered by poor sound quality, if I expect it to be bad. I'm terribly bothered by it, if I expect it to be good, and its not.
PickyEars81
Super Member
As for the "crazy stereo guy" comment: I sense a female in the equation somewhere 
Scuzzer
Fixed Bias
Hipster.
I only use mp3s that I make myself and they never sound bad. If they did I would fix whatever went wrong in the process because they shouldn't ever sound horribly different from the original. I have heard some fairly bad ones though and I wonder what percentage of the commonly downloaded ones are just garbage. One transcoding and the whole encoding system is messed up.
just dave
vintage rules!
I still don't have an ipod or mp3 files.Vinyl sounds great to me and so do cds I'll get around to mp3's eventually probably when everybody's into mp5s.I guess I'm halfway between love of music and love of the sound of music.I too am not going to worry about tweaking.Like that guy who weighs his records and puts the sound diffracting dots on his wall....pulease!Hey Scuzzer I like classical too although a rocker at heart
I use MP3s that I download from Amazon all the time and on my hi-fis at that (I don't use an Ipod). How else am I gonna hear "Killer Joe" by the Rocky Fellers? I lost my 45 of it over 40 years ago.
i for one like listening to Neil Young sometimes, and i'm also glad he's publicly pushing for higher-quality digital files. by himself i don't think he's going to accomplish too much, but if he can get some younger, more relevant artists to help out then we might get somewhere. FWIW, his 96/24 DVD from his recent greatest hits album sounds wonderful IMO.
The problem is that music today is mastered way too loud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
An awesomly mastered, properly ripped and encoded V0 mp3 is going to sound way better than a loudly mastered vinyl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
An awesomly mastered, properly ripped and encoded V0 mp3 is going to sound way better than a loudly mastered vinyl.
Soundminded
Well-Known Member
Typical of the genre. IMO MP3 is overkill for it. Don't a lot of them die of drug overdoses? Easy for him to blame is dissatisfaction with his own recordings on the technology. I wonder if he hasn't considered other possibilities.
FWIW, I love Neil Young as an artist, he's one of my favorite musicians. I've just never found most of his albums to be that well recorded, for somebody who takes such a stand on sound quality. If he didn't take such a stand, I wouldn't even have called it out or noticed it really, as I think a lot of rock records from the '70s sound similar. Not all, but many. But I listen to them because I like the songs, and the lo-fi-ish nature of some of them fits the music.
An interesting comparison. I was listening to Big Star's 3rd this morning, on a vinyl pressing from the '80s. It just wasn't good. But I have the same songs, on a recent CD box set, and they sound fantastic. But wait! Thats...digital. The CD of the same recordings, remastered, sounds fantastic. The older vinyl pressing, doesn't. A newer vinyl pressing from 3 years ago sounds better but nowhere near as good as the CD- they really did a fantastic job on that box set.
Which is to say, I think Neil Young is a bit full of it. I get his intention, and I think its great- but there's so much more to what gets you good sound or mediocre sound, than whether or not its on vinyl, CD, or high res digital. We SHOULD have high res digital easily available by now. That still won't make all recordings instantly sound great. The highest resolution isn't going to save the recording from bad mastering or studio technique.
And bad mastering isn't limited to CDs. Don't believe the Loudness War hype. LPs are just as hit or miss.
An interesting comparison. I was listening to Big Star's 3rd this morning, on a vinyl pressing from the '80s. It just wasn't good. But I have the same songs, on a recent CD box set, and they sound fantastic. But wait! Thats...digital. The CD of the same recordings, remastered, sounds fantastic. The older vinyl pressing, doesn't. A newer vinyl pressing from 3 years ago sounds better but nowhere near as good as the CD- they really did a fantastic job on that box set.
Which is to say, I think Neil Young is a bit full of it. I get his intention, and I think its great- but there's so much more to what gets you good sound or mediocre sound, than whether or not its on vinyl, CD, or high res digital. We SHOULD have high res digital easily available by now. That still won't make all recordings instantly sound great. The highest resolution isn't going to save the recording from bad mastering or studio technique.
And bad mastering isn't limited to CDs. Don't believe the Loudness War hype. LPs are just as hit or miss.
barkerd
Super Member
to suggest that sales = an indication of quality is just silly. If that were the case everyone here would like Bose ... and that is not the case. To each his own and all that jazz ... ymmv ..... and so on
However : people here regularly dismiss the likes of Carver etc.... and he is trained in this stuff ...... go check out John Vanderkooy .... some people who are recognized authorities on this subject
I love Neil Young : but an expert on digital media he is not. My lord : he is in his 60's ..... love to see the results of a hearing test on him after years of amplified onstage antics ...... he's joking ; right ? (and he has been known to do this ; then admit it later) Please , someone give me a reasonable argument to suggest he should be considered an authority on digital music reproduction.
Seems to me there is a lot better argument / facts / data to suggest he has ulterior reasons for saying this.... the least of which is NOT the fact that his audience demographic is likely to love him for it .
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
I think you guys are all reading WAY, WAY-too-much into this... Yes, digital CAN sound good. If it's produced, recorded, and mastered properly. But that hasn't been the case lately, has it? Most popular music is mastered way-too-loudly with too-much mastering-compression, and let's face it... A good deal of it isn't recorded very-well either... The recording industry is not exactly using the digital format to it's fullest (certainly-not with audio), and when they DO release any hi-rez stuff, it's often half-assed, or worse, it's got mastering-compression on it... A hi-rez format with compression! That makes a lot of sense... So when Neil says we aren't making the most of digital-audio, call me crazy, but I agree with him...
And I say all this while listening to my 24/96 hi-rez reel-to-reel tape transfer of "Led Zeppelin IV"...
And I say all this while listening to my 24/96 hi-rez reel-to-reel tape transfer of "Led Zeppelin IV"...
capt.chaos
Super Member
I have to agree with you. I see it all the time.
So you're saying you like high-end rolloff? couldn't the CD mastering engineer just replicate that? it sounds like your problem is not with CDs but with the harsh mastering style.
capt.chaos
Super Member
I agree with Neil that the most is not being made out of the digital format. I think it can be much better, very good in fact. As it stands now, I like my mp3's when exercising or on the move. I like cd's or digital radio when in the car. CD's,FLAC, and streaming digital is great at home when I am listening while doing something else. It is also great for parties or entertaining, because I like to socialize not DJ. But when I listen to music for the purpose of pure enjoyment, vinyl is the only way to go!
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In my experience, it has been the case. Many new recordings, and remasterings of older recordings, sound fantastic. Some pop recordings, maybe most of what is played on the radio regularly, is over-compressed. But that is for its intended target. Most other new recordings I have, sound as good or better than anything I've had from before.
michaelhigh
mind's eye music
The state of affairs with brickwalling concerns me, because my favorite rock group, Oasis, is generally known to be consistantly guilty of this crime. I let my appreciation of their music and the songwriting and singing of Noel Gallegher negate any misgivings about the techinque he and his brother's new band Beady Eye use in the studio. I've never heard them on vinyl but would welcome the opportunity to see if their LP's sound any different on vinyl.
FauxHall
Super Member
I don't see eye-to-eye with Neil Young on much, but in this case I agree with him. There is a market for higher quality digital sound and it is underserved. I appreciate his using his position in the music industry to poke the commercial industry into providing more and better product for me to choose from.
I too have his greatest hits with a DVD and a CD on it. The DVD is substantially better to my ears and is almost SACD quality, as one would expect from the bit rates.
We all need to understand that there is WIDE variation in our ears and our aural processing. Some of us cringe at even good CDs while other are satisfied with HD Radio and low bit rate MP3. Some people can't STAND music, period, other detect differences in speaker cables. Others can't stand music unless it is live, in a great venue. There's no right or wrong here, just the varieties of human experience and capabilities.
I too have his greatest hits with a DVD and a CD on it. The DVD is substantially better to my ears and is almost SACD quality, as one would expect from the bit rates.
We all need to understand that there is WIDE variation in our ears and our aural processing. Some of us cringe at even good CDs while other are satisfied with HD Radio and low bit rate MP3. Some people can't STAND music, period, other detect differences in speaker cables. Others can't stand music unless it is live, in a great venue. There's no right or wrong here, just the varieties of human experience and capabilities.