New turntable or phono preamp?

jazzzman

jazzzman

Active Member
I recently purchased a Nagaoka MP150 and am looking to see where to start to improve the rest of my analog system. I am set with speakers (ML electrostatics), power amp (am building Aleph J monoblocks), and preamp (I plan on building a Zenmod Iron pre). That leaves my turntable and phono preamp.

I have had a Pioneer PL-610 (circa 1978) for around 15 years. The speed is rock steady. I have the capacitors needed for a recap, which I am planning on performing once I find the time. Although I really like that turntable, I suspect after 45 years the tonearm is probably out of spec. I can’t help thinking that a modern turntable might improve my sound.

On the other hand, I am using a Muffsy phono preamp. I suspect I could do better.

So the question is which would give me a bigger sq boost, a new turntable (at around $2,000 or a new phono preamp (at around 1 thousand)?

The tt’s I am considering are (1) Origin Live Aurora with Onyx tonearm (2) Sota Escape with either Onyx or Moth tonearm (3) Vinyl Nirvana TD 160 with Onyx, Moth, or Audiomod Classic tonearm. I was considering the Technics GR, but I am not sure if it would be much different from my PL-610.

The phono preamps I am considering are (1) Graham Slee Reflex M (2) Lehman Black Cube SE ii (3) Musical Surroundings Phenomena ii+.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
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Nashou66 said:
SOTA Pyxi preamp.

Nashou
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My thought as well. I don't have one, but I was following Wyn's DIY phono stage thread with interest and it sure sounds like the guy knows his stuff and people are happy with his designs.

I personally ended up with a used Acurus P10 because I was looking specifically for something to use with an Acurus DIA-100 Mk2 and one came up for sale in the price range I was looking at...
 
jazzzman said:
I have had a Pioneer PL-610 (circa 1978) for around 15 years. The speed is rock steady. I have the capacitors needed for a recap, which I am planning on performing once I find the time. Although I really like that turntable, I suspect after 45 years the tonearm is probably out of spec. I can’t help thinking that a modern turntable might improve my sound.
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If you've had it for ~15 years I would assume that then it's been well cared for for at least that amount of time. If you're really concerned about it do you have someone local that could check it out for you? It might be just fine.
 
Not merely to be contrary, but based on the theory that equipment later in the audio chain are limited by those earlier, and that the turntable is the more important of the choices (think Linn LP-12 with their cheapest cartridge) I believe you should opt for better a TT first. Especially as the Darlington, and SOTA phono pre's as suggested are so affordable. An upgraded TT will provide a better signal for the equipment that follows.
You can't improve the sound later in the audio chain. My 2¢.
 
ctjetta said:
Not merely to be contrary, but based on the theory that equipment later in the audio chain are limited by those earlier, and that the turntable is the more important of the choices (think Linn LP-12 with their cheapest cartridge) I believe you should opt for better a TT first. Especially as the Darlington, and SOTA phono pre's as suggested are so affordable. An upgraded TT will provide a better signal for the equipment that follows.
You can't improve the sound later in the audio chain. My 2¢.
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I agree that the OP may have the budget to do both the TT and the phono preamp if you get a SOTA Pxyi. I have both MM and MC versions of @wyn palmer 's DIY phono preamp that is the foundation of the Pxyi and they are excellent. AK members who have the SOTA preamp seem to really like it so I recommend the new SOTA phono preamp regardless.

Also, I have a Pioneer PL-610 collecting dust. I spent way too much money fixing the auto return (bad unobtanium IC that I did locate in Europe) to then have the speed issue that afflicts both the 610 and 630 occur so it sits unused. The other issue with the 610/630 are the feet. They are an integral part of the suspension and the spring's rubber boots are most certainly shot by now. Two of my 610's rubber boots are completely missing and there isn't a real good solution. I think the tonearm is one of the table's strong points and unless you have seen some aberrant behavior (e.g. bad bearings) I wouldn't toss it aside just because of the tonearm. There is no denying the 610 is a looker and when performing well was frequently paired with Pioneer's Series 20 or Spec components. However, I'm not confident the 610 on whole is a long(er) term table and would look to replace it.
 
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts. AvFan your experience with the PL610 is interesting. My auto return and tonearm lift are no longer functioning, but the speed is still right on. I think my boots have fallen apart. I was going to stick foam in there (although I will lose horizontal stability) when I recap it. Your thinking on the tonearm is reassuring. It seems like I should wait to replace the tt until it gives me speed problems, if new tonearms are not really going to do much for me.

Is the Sota preamp going to be much of an improvement over my Muffsy? Will it be as good as the three phono preamps I mentioned in initial post?
 
jazzzman said:
Is the Sota preamp going to be much of an improvement over my Muffsy? Will it be as good as the three phono preamps I mentioned in initial post?
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I can't say since I have not used a Muffsy but there are many folks who have built the DIY version resulting in a pretty impressive list of phono preamps being shelved in favor of Wyn Palmer's design. @mkane 's personal list of phono preamps cast aside includes at least one that cost about $4k IIRC. In my case Wyn's preamp easily replaced a Sutherland PH3D preamp. I think the $300 SOTA is a steal.

Re: Your PL-610. The tech working on my 610 said that I should just use it as a fully manual TT but I wanted the auto return so I spent the money to buy an IC from Germany I think. $$$$ Then the feet, then the speed issue, then what is next? It was too much time, money and effort to try and keep what was a very good TT in the '80s working today. I ended up buying a Technics SL-1200 MKII and grew comfortable with fully manual TTs that would have fewer issues and could be fixed if needed.
 
Thank you, AvFan and mkane. I will look into the Sota preamp. (The DIY Pete Millette LR phono preamp also looks interesting.) It seems I still have some time before deciding how to replace my PL-610.
 
Which opamps do you have in the Muffsy? It's a simple but good design, though I seem to recall having to play around with the gain a bit to get best results, I had some headroom problems initially, but it was years ago so I might have got it confused with something else :) What I remember is OPA2134 giving really bad and coloured results, obscuring detail. Initially it was a bit euphonic but pretty soon I started realizing I'm not getting the level of detail and clarity I'm used to. I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure I have LM4562 for both gain stages in mine. I didn't experiment beyond that since I liked the LM4562 so well. In any case quite happy with it, I've heard better - what it lacks is mainly the very finest details and resulting imaging - both are good but not as good as they could be. But overall it just gets out of the way and it betters all phono stages from integrated amps I ever heard. FWIW I also did the RIAA network using teflon caps, the stock PP were fine, IMO the teflons were an upgrade.

If you tweak the Muffsy to get most out of it, I would think it won't really limit what the MP-150 can do. That said personally I'm a fan of having a good phono stage, since they don't wear down unlike cartridges, so having a good enough phono stage you're no limiting what you can get out of an expensive part that wears down by the hour. Another thing, power supplies are really important for phono stages, I've had good results using SLA batteries since I'm too lazy to build good PSUs, though only having +/- 12V might have been part of my problem with the gain staging, most opamps can do around +/- 18V which would give more headroom.

I'm not familiar with the PL-610 but it looks the part, most turntables are a compromise, depends a bit what you appreciate in music and what's most important to you. IME belt drives (especially suspended ones) tend to struggle a bit with the bass and dynamics compared to a good DD or idler, but can image really well and preserve the delicacies :) Those are broad generalizations, but I figure you could probably improve on *some aspects* of your turntable pretty easily but might give up on something else in the process.

EDIT: oh.. and another thing that can often be a huge "upgrade" is spending time getting the speaker (and listening) positioning just right and so that the speakers can do the best they can in the room. That's a tricky area because you might have interior design considerations you have to take into account and thus compromise with the speakers... So it's not always possible to do it purely for best possible sound. But it's something that can yield huge benefits if you take the time (that is if you haven't already of course).
 
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Thank you, muovimes. That is very interesting about the op amps. I am using (from the start) OPA2134PA’s in both sockets. I also have a hum, since I switched from batteries to the walwart. I have never tried any other op amps. I could try some LM4562’s and see how it goes. What phono stage are you currently using?
 
jazzzman said:
Thank you, muovimes. That is very interesting about the op amps. I am using (from the start) OPA2134PA’s in both sockets. I also have a hum, since I switched from batteries to the walwart. I have never tried any other op amps. I could try some LM4562’s and see how it goes. What phono stage are you currently using?
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Op amps will behave a little differently in each circuit, plus is highly subjective....not so different than rolling tubes. With that said, my Hagerman Bugle 3 came stock with three LM4562s. After trying the OPA2134, NE5532, OPA2228, OPA2210, OPA1612and Muse S02, I ended up with two Muse S02 and OPA1612 in U2, U3, and U4 positions respectively. The OPA2210 was also excellent, and the 2228 made a good showing as well. Most of these aren't expensive if you want to try a few on your own.

I also replaced the wall wart with a proper power supply for a grand total for ~ $35 using a 24v Power One HA-24 I found on Ebay, and a cheap project box. Along with some cap and a key resistor upgrades, what was a pretty good phono stage has ratcheted up a couple more notches. I'm handy, but I'm no EE, so this is all doable DIY stuff. Good luck!

IMG_2435.JPG PSU.png
 
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Keep in mind a high end turntable will get more out of a budget cartridge than a high end cartridge will out of a budget table

Easily within budget a few yrs ago, might be difficult now but maybe possible with some patience
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jazzzman said:
Thank you, muovimes. That is very interesting about the op amps. I am using (from the start) OPA2134PA’s in both sockets. I also have a hum, since I switched from batteries to the walwart. I have never tried any other op amps. I could try some LM4562’s and see how it goes. What phono stage are you currently using?
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I've been using the Muffsy again for the last week or so, my "reference" (in quotes because it's a rebuilt $30 phonostage :)) developed a hard to track fault I haven't been able to pin down. For a time I was just using cheaper cartridges and the in-built phono of my Sansui AU-317 (not that great tbh but got the job done), but since I played around with speakers and finally got them to work well in the room, I upgraded to the Muffsy from the Sansui.

It's a bummer with my "reference" since I spent quite a bit of time tuning the RIAA network and matching everything very close (it had all hand selected parts for RIAA accuracy within 0.05dB from 100-20k and channels perfectly matched). It performed excellent when it was working properly, both in perceived sound quality and measurements. For tonality and overall "musicality" my Muffsy is on par with that phono stage, and it also got matched parts, I just didn't spend as much time getting everything spot on. Where it lacks in comparison is it just doesn't resolve fine detail as well. It doesn't make me miss anything when I listen to music, but doing a back to back comparison, it omits some information, like finer room cues might not come through and it doesn't "dissect" a multitrack mix the way that other phono stage is capable of doing. Sometimes that can be a good thing that lets you focus on what's really important, instead of noticing stuff that frankly wasn't meant to be noticed by the people working in the studio :)

Anyway I would be interested to hear what you think if you decide to try something else in place of the OPA2134 in the Muffsy, I think NE5532 or something like that would also suffice if you happen to have any or want to save some money (they are old and cheap). If you decide to go that route I would start with changing both opamps and to listen for changes, if you hear some then it might be worth your time and money to try a bunch of different opamps.

Btw. just out of curiosity I took a quick look on the Lehmann Black Cube SE II and judging from what they say ("The passive filter network of the Black Cube SE II is located between two linear active amplifier stages") and pictures of the PCB, it's basically the same topology as the Muffsy, but it has an added gain stage for MC capability. Whereas the Muffsy uses two dual-channel opamps it 'shares' between the channels, the SE II seems to have a dual mono design with 1 single channel and 1 dual channel chip for both left and right channels. It certainly looks more impressive in a photo and should have some theoretical benefit at least, but OTOH for channel separation it's the cartridge that will be the weak link in the chain. For cost of parts it's not that different from a Muffsy (if you use similar quality). Basically all that extra money you are spending is going into possible refinement of a similar basic design and having it built for you (and markups for everyone who takes a cut etc.) - I don't know how good the Black Cube SeII is in practice, I do know Lehmann phono stages have good reputation, so it's probably made by competent people, but on the surface it looks like there's nothing stopping you from getting similar quality from the Muffsy - unless the board layout is a limiting factor.
 
Mine is probably not the most popular opinion.

I would scrap the whole thing and start with a fresh sheet of paper. But there are some alternatives.

1. Your current table could accept a far better cartridge than the 150. If I were doing this I would consider the SOTA Pyxi or see if I can find a used version of the Dynavector P75 MK IV. I would buy a far better cartridge, possibly something like an Audio Technica OC9 XML or a Denon DL 301 II.

2. I would go to the used market with $1.7K and buy the best used version table I could buy. Something like this

www.audiogon.com

Clearaudio Concept Belt Drive Turntable; C... For Sale | Audiogon

Clearaudio Concept Belt Drive Turntable Turntables for sale. Buy Now Make an Offer View Product Details For fastest service, speak with one of our ...
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Then order the Pyxi.

Or sell the Pioneer so you have a bit more in the kitty and do something like this

www.usaudiomart.com

Origin Live Calypso turntable and Origin Silver tonearm

“Simply stated, the Origin Live Illustrious tonearm/Aurora Gold turntable (now Calypso) produce the best musical results of any turntable I’ve ever heard, regardless of price.” -Stereo TimesUnbelievable sound stage.Origin Live Calypso MKII tt.Origin Live Silver MKII tonearm.I love this setup...
www.usaudiomart.com www.usaudiomart.com

or maybe this if old school

www.audiogon.com

Thorens TD-160 Super w/ custom plinth, SME... For Sale | Audiogon

Thorens TD-160 Super Turntables for sale. This listing is for a beautiful Thorens TD-160 Super turntable with a really clean dustcover, and is a cu...
www.audiogon.com www.audiogon.com
 
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