newbie question....mono vs stereo

[jwrosenthal]

I have all original LP's most are pre 1965(stereo and some mono) and it clearly states on the album sleeve" THIS STEREO RECORD SHOULD BE PLAYED ONLY WITH A STEREO CARTRIDGE AND NEEDLE TO AVOID DAMAGE". I have many LP's like this,the one I got the quote from is :Frank Sinatra ~ Sinatra's Swingin' Session!!!- Capitol SW 1491(original pressing). Should I totally disregard this notice based solely on your expert advise?

Perhaps I muddled the point in my very long and tiresome explanation, but I thought I was clear....you should NOT use ANY stylus larger than .008mil with a stereo groove...this is not my mandate but direct from Ortofon. I asked them about using a D25M on my stereo records (which is a Super OM series with a .01mil conical stylus) and they said DO NOT as it will damage stereo records. The warning on the back of your record is exactly what I thought I was saying in my post....that you should not use anything but a stereo pick-up with a stereo record.

But the original point of this thread was that mono albums will be just fine with a stereo cart, they just won't sound as good as they could..unless they were pressed later (like the re-released mono recordings) which should ONLY be played with a stereo cart and never with a mono cart regardless of the fact that it says MONO on the album. If in doubt...just use a stereo cart

James R.

 

[jwrosenthal]

Hmm. The way I read jwr's explanation, it would make sense to have the "stereo cartridge only" warning on those albums cut in mono with a stereo lathe, as the grooves would be narrower and thus using the larger original mono stylus (at .010ml) would cause damage. Using a stereo stylus (at 0.08) would not. If the album was pressed before the introduction of stereo, then it would have been pressed on a mono lathe, with wider grooves, accommodating the mono .010ml stylus.

So, I would only see a contradiction if the warning was present on mono releases pressed on a mono lathe (pre-1957 for example).

jmr, do I have this right?

On the money!!!:thmbsp: But it's not a contradiction. They are indeed stating that it is a MONO recording....but the warning label is stressing that it must be played with a stereo stylus...which "implies" that it is a stereo groove as they used the same lathe for both the mono and stereo version that they sold. Those warning dissapeared after several years as they assumed that everyone had converted over to stereo styli, so it was a non-issue. Then you get guys like me trying to play "modern" mono recordings with my .01mil conical stylus thinking that if it's mono, then why not use a mono cartridge......my rant is simply from bitter experience.

James R.

 

[Asha]

Perhaps I muddled the point in my very long and tiresome explanation, but I thought I was clear....you should NOT use ANY stylus larger than .008mil with a stereo groove...this is not my mandate but direct from Ortofon. I asked them about using a D25M on my stereo records (which is a Super OM series with a .01mil conical stylus) and they said DO NOT as it will damage stereo records. The warning on the back of your record is exactly what I thought I was saying in my post....that you should not use anything but a stereo pick-up with a stereo record.

But the original point of this thread was that mono albums will be just fine with a stereo cart, they just won't sound as good as they could..unless they were pressed later (like the re-released mono recordings) which should ONLY be played with a stereo cart and never with a mono cart regardless of the fact that it says MONO on the album. If in doubt...just use a stereo cart

James R.

But, wouldn't it be safe to use modern MONO cartridges that have stylii smaller than .008 mil also? And if so, would there be a sound advantage to doing so or would you just get the same result as you would with using your normal stereo cartridge and summing the channels (forcing mono) at the pre-amp?

And, if one were to spring for a modern MONO cartridge, would it be better to use a conical stylus over an eliptical-, fine line- or Shibata-shaped one?

I thought I had it straight, but now I'm not sure.

 

[jwrosenthal]

The ceramic stuff is a killer on your vinyl if you let the needle go for too long. A fresh gemstone needle (they didn't always use diamonds) would be fine for about 100 hrs of play then start to tear your records apart...I have heard some of these albums...YIKES!! The GE VRII (aka Triple play) used a diamond .01 conical on the "LP" side and a .03 conical ruby on the "78" side. These were actually very good carts as long as you have an arm that can give you 5 grams of VTF (ROK arms love these carts). They are a blast for 78's, 10" lp's, very early mono (through 1955) and mono 45's as you can flip back and forth between 78's and LP with ease....but I wouldn't let them near my good stuff.

James R.

 

[jwrosenthal]

But, wouldn't it be safe to use modern MONO cartridges that have stylii smaller than .008 mil also? And if so, would there be a sound advantage to doing so or would you just get the same result as you would with using your normal stereo cartridge and summing the channels (forcing mono) at the pre-amp?

And, if one were to spring for a modern MONO cartridge, would it be better to use a conical stylus over an eliptical-, fine line- or Shibata-shaped one?

I thought I had it straight, but now I'm not sure.

I don't think there even is a mono cart that is smaller than .01 mil, as that would defeat the purpose..you need to fill that groove! Grado makes a .01 Elliptical stylus, but I haven't heard it so I don't know if the stylus profile actually maked a difference.

You are correct that any smaller would be just like summing the channels with a stereo cart. Almost all of the new mono carts on the market are actually stereo carts with a larger stylus...they have 4 leads, and play both left and right channel...the signals are just the same. But with the larger profile it does sound better than just summing the channles on you preamp.

The only TRUE currently made mono cart that i know of (I don't really keep track of the esoteric or unaffordable carts as I just don't think they are viable for me), is the Denon DL-102...it has only 2 leads and is a REAL mono cart. Now I don't feel the need to be that much of a purist ( hey, I'm running a big fat stereo cart and summing the channels on my pre like everyone else), but if I did get a wild hair to be dedicated to mono, I would get an arm for my 124 that I would wire specifically for that Denon, run it to a McIntosh C8 and MC30 and single Klipschorn, and be spinning my mono in style!!!:thmbsp:

James R.

 

[Scuzzer]

The GE Triple Play (VR or RPX variants) have 1 mil or 0.7 mil diamond stylus available for mono playback. Seeing as they have a cult following among far east audiophiles (paired with a Grey Research arm) I seriously doubt they will damage any mono recording. I can certainly understand why some people would disagree though.

edit: Most modern mono cartridges have a 0.7mil stylus although there are a few companies like Ortofon that also make a 1 mil available.

 

[jwrosenthal]

The GE Triple Play (VR or RPX variants) have 1 mil or 0.7 mil diamond stylus available for mono playback. Seeing as they have a cult following among far east audiophiles (paired with a Grey Research arm) I seriously doubt they will damage any mono recording. I can certainly understand why some people would disagree though.

edit: Most modern mono cartridges have a 0.7mil stylus although there are a few companies like Ortofon that also make a 1 mil available.

I think your right that the RPX had the .07mil...which would allow you to play stereo albums on a mono system (which was very popular as you weren't going to ditch your very expensive Mahogany console just because a new format was available). This would allow you to have the best of both worlds...just now your stereo albums would be playing in mono.:scratch2:

James R.

 

[Scuzzer]

Nah, none of the VR or RPX had vertical compliance so you shouldn't use them with stereo records. They were initially set up for 1 mil mono grooves and later on when the cutting went to 0.7 mil for mono (the stereo era) they also made available a 0.7 mil stylus. The RPX were the precursor to the VR line.

They're awesome for projecting that mid-range magic that's on the grooves of 50's-early 60's jazz and Sinatra type stuff. They also make the jangly guitars on my Mr. Tambourine Man mono reach out and slap you. I'm guessing nostalgia accounts for a healthy percentage of why I like them.

 

[jwrosenthal]

I am a big advocate of period matching...not just components, but recordings as well. My buddy has an original 1957 Ortofon SPU GM/T mounted on his Thorens 124, with Marantz 8b amp going through a Marantz 7 hooked to a pair of Altec 804's and Sinatra is IN the room with you on those early Capitol stereo recordings. Anyone who thinks things have gotten better in the world of HI-FI never heard it like that!!

James R.

 

[Scuzzer]

I'd agree completely. I like old recordings through old tube stuff and old idler turntables. I cannot say it is the most accurate way to hear this stuff but it is certainly enjoyable. Perhaps that's the nostalgia whitewashing the experience for me but I still enjoy the heck out of it.

Someday when I've got a stack of cash in my pocket I'll have an SPU and few other high end ancient cartridges along with a selection of old idlers and I'll do a shoot out to see which I like best. But for now I'll just have to use the old RPX and Gray Research clone to muddle along.

 

[Asha]

I looked up the Denon DL-102 and found this from its instruction sheet:

- Unlike conventional mono cartridges, this one is most effective when utilized in mono replay during stereo recordings because of its ability to comply to appropriate up/down movements.
- The curvature radius of the needle is 17 microns (0.7 mil) thus highly suited for recordings of both stereo and mono style.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/murraya/DL102inst.htm

I think I'm getting it. So, the DL-102 (or one like it) would be the only kind of mono cartridge to use with "modern" mono records pressed with the narrower v-shaped stereo grooves, but could also be used with older wider-grooved records. On the other hand, cartridges such as the Ortofon that have 1.0 mil stylii would be preferable for the older (and only to be used with the older), mono-lathed records because they could more completely "fill the groove." Does this sound right?

BTW, here's another link I thought might be of interest. (It helped me )

http://members.myactv.net/~je205d/mono.htm

 

[Scuzzer]

You got it right, the 102 was primarily designed so AM radio stations could easily play mono or stereo records. It wouldn't be the only kind of mono cartridge to use with modern mono records since most new mono cartridges come with 0.7 mil stylii, however, as far as I know it is the only cheap mono cartridge that uses a single pole oriented to capture lateral movement. Most cheaper mono cartridges use the standard 2 pole stereo 45 degree alignment and just sum the signal from the 2 coils.

Whether the 2 pole stereo alignment summed to mono is equal to a single pole at 90 degrees is one of those audiophile "splitting hairs" arguments that probably has no definite answer.

The JELabs site is a great one for learning about mono playback.