absolutely zero representation...But I'll bet the highs are very cold, the sound has poor 3d resolution and they don't have good representation...
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Nichicon KZ audio caps are not that great
- Thread starter Robert2017
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slimecity
Super Member
I'd say it would look pretty crowded, FWIW.
I knew I shouldn't of given up the drink...damn!I always reach for a can when I'm about to listen, problem solved!
goodolpg
Just an old fart trying to help.
Maybe the "secret ingredient" is that you end up with 30uf less?
Just be careful with paralleling different caps, sometimes it might sound nice but sometimes it can introduce anomalies. There are technical reasons for these anomalies.
I had 3 different film caps in parallel on the tweeter side of a crossover at one time making up the required value, and it created an echo effect, I replaced them with a single cap of that required value.
Don't you know you just destroyed the 3D effect?
Binkman
Lunatic Member
Never heard of the artist.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
Kevin Zappa, Frank's older and much less-known distant cousin?
Dazaa
Super Member
Haven't bothered reading the thread but can someone explain what makes an audio cap, an "audio" cap. From my extremely basic knowledge a capacitor is a can containing a foil backed piece of paper and some stuffing. Has anyone chopped up a boutique cap to compare to a no brand cap? Genuine question.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
I'd heard anecdotally that an "audio" cap from a given manufacturer was usually one with at least lower ESL (series inductance -- which you want to be low to avoid distortion) and perhaps a higher temperature rating (the assumption being that you're using heat-emitting tubes or semiconductors) than the same manufacturer's equivalent non-"audio" caps with otherwise identical specs, though there may be an attempt to deliver better specs all around.
They may also (or only) have a clearly-identifiable case colour and visible branding, intended for exposed applications or to please the audiophile who likes to open the case now and then and marvel at his gear's innards.
Determining whether any of this is still true or not (or ever was; as I say, it's anecdotal) is an exercise for the reader.
Robert2017
Active Member
I heard than is not ok to combine films with electrolytics or polypropylene with paper those having totally different construction .
Elna , Cerafine KZ FG are all made under the same principle having almost same size so the result should be mainly positive right ?
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
I made myself curious, so I looked up the spec sheets for Nichicon KZ and FW caps (https://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-kz.pdf and https://products.nichicon.co.jp/en/pdf/XJA043/e-fw.pdf). They differ in leakage current rating -- 0.03 CV for FW, 0.01 CV or less for KZ under the same test conditions. The KZ caps have tinned copper leads; the FW cap lead types are unspecified -- suggesting maybe steel or nickel. The loss tangent (effectively normalised ESR and another way of specifying dissipation factor) is slightly lower for the KZ caps than FW. Other electrical specs per these sheets are the same (unless I missed something -- I'm not being particularly careful.) ESL isn't specified on these sheets.
Rog Beltmann
Member
The quality of a capacitor is based on its 'Q'. Polar or np lytics have low Q of 5-10. Mylars are much better at 60-100. Metallized polys are usually 200 or above. You get what you pay for.
That's a bit of misinformation you have picked up there, kind of......maybe those who stated it were misinformed.
Just like combining different film caps you can end up with phase shifts, or timing errors. Maybe not the clear technical descriptions as I'm not a tech', but different caps can have enough differences between one another where you end up with these kind of incompatibilities.
Doesn't mean it will always produce errors, just that it can, and technically you can get smearing just combining 2 different caps, though by-passing a large cap with something in the order of 1/100th is common and is acceptable to most folk...like a small film by-pass over a large electrolytic to smooth out the high frequencies, or a small higher quality film cap over a larger base film cap. Doesn't matter if poly or paper ect'.
I try and use one high quality cap where ever possible, unless It's to make up a given value and then paralleling the same type is OK. But I'm not adverse to bypassing a medium quality film cap with a higher quality small cap to gain the qualities of the better small cap.
I'm not going to discourage you from experimenting, as it's not a given that you will always get a negative result, but once you get to 3x different caps the chance of anomalies/errors will be much greater.
A better way to get the sound you are after is to populate different positions in the circuit with different caps, finding the balance and sound you prefer.
Just how I look at this stuff.
All the best.
This is misinformation - utter nonsense from your source - you will see this done many many times, so common that it is standard practice among many if not all hi-fi equipment manufacturers.
Their construction is irrelevant when related to the question of whether they could or would be used together or not.
If by 'Elna' you mean 'Elna Silmic', and Cerafine - it is my understanding that they are made in a significantly different way to Nichicon KZ and FG capacitors. So arguably may give somewhat different results when used in Hi-Fi gear.
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Dazaa
Super Member
Exactly as I expected then, higher tolerance caps with fancy packaging. Fools and money eh.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
"Tolerance" is another capacitor characteristic, of which lower tolerance is considered better, but I know what you mean.
Capacitor manufacturers can make capacitors -- for a given capacitance and voltage rating -- with various characteristics ranging from relatively low ESR, leakage, ESL, small physical dimensions and lower tolerance with high temperature rating; to higher ESR, leakage, ESL, larger dimensions and higher tolerance with lower temperature rating. Better characteristics tend to cost a bit more; poorer characteristics a bit less, and combinations of characteristics involve various tradeoffs -- e.g., higher voltage rating means larger physical dimensions; higher temperature rating means larger physical dimensions; lower ESR may mean higher leakage, etc.
Therefore, a manufacturer will produce various lines of capacitors with different combinations of characteristics to suit various applications -- hopefully at competitive price points.
A smart marketing department knows sticking to abstract manufacturing codes for its various lines -- like KZ, FG, FW, etc. -- will not stand out in a competitive marketplace, so it labels its lines as "premium grade for audio equipment", or "standard grade", or "high grade standard for audio equipment" to appeal to a broader market. "Premium grade" simply means a particular combination of slightly more costly-to-produce characteristics. There isn't anything inherently "audio" in any line of capacitors; it's simply a designation for a particular combination of characteristics that the marketing department thought would help sell capacitors.
pskaudio
No user serviceable parts inside me...
I like Nichicon KZ. They look real nice inside, black with gold lettering. Silmics are that ugly brown with white lettering.
The old Panasonic HF looked nice too, dark blue with silver lettering.
These huge differences people are hearing between electrolytic caps can be summed up very simply... It's in your head!
For years people have been saying the KZ is cooler and more analytical sounding than the warmer and softer Silmic.
I'm not saying there's no difference between them, but nowhere near the degree stated by the OP.
If KZs sound dry, you could try some "dampening" material...
The old Panasonic HF looked nice too, dark blue with silver lettering.
These huge differences people are hearing between electrolytic caps can be summed up very simply... It's in your head!
For years people have been saying the KZ is cooler and more analytical sounding than the warmer and softer Silmic.
I'm not saying there's no difference between them, but nowhere near the degree stated by the OP.
If KZs sound dry, you could try some "dampening" material...
They can work fine in a given circuit, it really depends on the circuit and the other parts....there are a few reasons for makers to choose a given capacitor for a given position in their gear, Marantz in there better CD Players usually used a mix of Cerafine and other caps, but they didn't just toss them in anywhere 
I bet KI chose parts with their sound signature in mind, not just by measurements............not that there is anything wrong with that!
Also, the maker may just like the sound of those KZ's, they are pretty balanced and very detailed in the sound signature they have.
I know people that prefer them to Silmic's hands down, I personally like the Simic's better.
I'm recapping a CD-65 soon, and plan one a fair few Silmic's with some Cerafine caps also, but I need to be mindful not to over do the Cerifines, for my taste. I will be using a few Oscon's also, and maybe another brand's series in the power supply somewhere maybe Pany FC's, haven't decided yet.
I bet KI chose parts with their sound signature in mind, not just by measurements............not that there is anything wrong with that!Also, the maker may just like the sound of those KZ's, they are pretty balanced and very detailed in the sound signature they have.
I know people that prefer them to Silmic's hands down, I personally like the Simic's better.
I'm recapping a CD-65 soon, and plan one a fair few Silmic's with some Cerafine caps also, but I need to be mindful not to over do the Cerifines, for my taste. I will be using a few Oscon's also, and maybe another brand's series in the power supply somewhere maybe Pany FC's, haven't decided yet.
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