OH NO! More Cable BULLSH--!!!

ginovino

ginovino

Active Member
Now that I got your attention! :banana: :banana: :banana:

2/27/06- I have been advised that some AK Members have taken umbrage to my misleading Headline. Simply put, It was my attempt to make light of the craziness that ensues after a cable review. I assure you what follows is quite banal (that means tame, so put away the oxygen). This is not a mea culpa, though rather a note to those who will reread this thread and see changes made and will understand why.

Fellow AK Members,

I have commented on a few occasions about the relative merits of various models of both Speaker and Interconnect cables in my system. This is not an effort to start a cable thread or worst yet “cable wars”. The more astute of you will understand et al the vagaries which this sampling was done. The rest of you Caveat emptor!

I am in quest of a suitable “digital” Interconnect cable for use as a link between my Rotel RCD-955ax cd player and my newly (albeit NOS) acquired PS Audio UltraLink DAC.

Putting aside the speaker cables in use in my system, currently 3 ½ meters of Kimber 8TC with postmaster PM-33 spade lugs on both ends. Which I have found them to be at this price point a nice pairing with my pair of Bryston 7b-St’s and Thiel CS-3.6’s.

Under consideration so far and acquired through eBay purchase or Manufacturers buy & try I offer the following:

PS Audio xStream Resolution 1mtr with RCA (digital)- buy & Try($108)

AudioQuest VDM-5 ½ mtr with RCA (digital) (ebay $60.00)

Kimber Hero½ & 1mtr with WBT -0144 RCA (ebay $80 & dealer $125)

Kimber Silver Streak ½ mtr with Neutrik RCA (ebay $109++)

Kimber Silver Streak ½ mtr with WBT-0147 RCA (ebay $133++)

These are my subjective sonic assessments thus far in descending order of satisfaction in MY SYSTEM (see below) compared against each other:

AudioQuest VDM-5, very lush rich sounding, pinpoint imaging- no floating heads or voices. Lots of very good spatial sonic clues revealed.They catch you by surprise. Highs smooth without loosing upper reaches. Detailed without etching. Lower mids & bass weight when called for without overhang- Fastest in this group. Real substance to the bottom end, deep-subterranean with obvious instrument resonances heard easily, not smeared. No male chesty-ness in Vocals, Sound stage width and depth lifelike. Vocal Images have real size and dimensions and stay put, not floating all over the sound stage. When pushed hard, no strain or irritations or abrasiveness to the sound. This cable is a keeper.

PS Audio xStream Resolution, a very full bodied sound, like turning up the mids & bass control on your preamp. Immediately hear this cable is in your system. Sort of jumps out at you as though you used a magnifying glass to increase the size of the image.. Less lush sounding, just full - too much of everything from the mids down. Good Spatial clues, though not as clean or as obvious, as the AudioQuest. Your moved from 15th row to 30th row. Bottom end full and potent, not quite subterranean, deep however slower than the AQ.
Male voice a little chestier. Imaging very good and stable, sound stage good, though not quite lifelike. Seems artificial. Image size hard to discern and outline. When pushed hard, a little strident and harsh. Satisfying enough though Not a keeper for me

Kimber Hero ½ & 1 mtr, while NOT officially a digital cable, this unit is a sleeper and the surprise of this listening analysis. Somewhere between the AQ and the PS audio in terms of overall sonic weight. Very satisfying and smooth mids and highs. While keeping everything in proportion. Not as detailed sonically as the AQ, though very satisfying. A livable cable. Lacking resolution of the AQ or PS a little too much of everything from the mids down though surprisingly fast. Fair to Good Spatial clues, though not as clean or as obvious as the AudioQuest. Bottom end full and potent, quite deep and more than adequate speed. Male voice chestier compared to AQ but less than PS. Imaging very good and stable, sound stage good, though not quite lifelike. Image size below top of speaker, hard to discern outlines. When pushed hard, a little strident and a tinge harsh. For the price you get two cables! Great Analog and Very satisfying surprising Digital! A keeper by any standards

Kimber Silver Streak ½ mtr WBT & Neutrik, while not officially a digital cable these were on hand so why not try them? Quite frankly a disappointment.
The leanest sounding of the group. Very detailed, almost painfully etched as though someone turned up the treble/presence control. Lower mids & bottom end recessed compared to the Hero, AQ & PS. Lacked weight & punch almost a polite bass, seemed fast, but thin. No oomph. The etching to the sound of the upper mids and highs gave an added sparkle to instruments like cymbals, bells, and some notes of the trumpets. It became an annoyance/irritant after a period of listening. I was constantly waiting for these cables to blossom and come alive, they never did. While what I did hear appeared in proportion to each other the mids & below lacked serious weight compared to the others.
Much too thin sounding in my system whether Analog or Digital. They may be accurate in some other system, though my gear is noted for being revealing and reveal it did. I will be shipping these to eBay as quickly as possible. Sorry Kimber not this model, not here.

Current equipment:
Bryston 12b preamp
Rotel RCD-955ax CD player
PS Audio UltraLink DAC
Sansui TU-919, TU-9900 and Kenwood KT-917 Tuners
Bryston 7b –ST mono block amplifiers
VPI MKIII Table with Grado Reference Statement
Thiel CS-3.6 Speakers
Monster HTS 2000mkII Surge/spike Protectors @ 2

No company or product “lost” in my analysis. Some faired better than others and for the reasons I experienced. When I started this quest I had no idea I’d be laden with so many cables some already on hand! A particular note about PS Audio, their marketing philosophy to allow a trial purchase of a product and return for a refund, exchange or upgrade is to be commended. That is truly supporting your product portfolio.

Sorry I'm too lazy to post pictures you can get at the mfgs websites.

I look forward to your respective responses! (I hope)

2/27/06- Please note that I have edited out some closing comments as well, found to upset some Ak members. There are 6 more comments I could add here, but in the interest of keeping good will among the fans I will restrain myself. :yes:
 
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I'll admit I'm a bit dubious about the effect of a digital cable on sound, but people were dubious about the existance of 'jitter' before it was actually identified as a physical effect, so I'll keep an open mind.

My curiosity, though, lies with the electromechanical properties of a cable that would cause a change in the digital signal that would result in the DAC receiving different information, which would result in the DAC generating a different analog signal, and thus, create an audible difference.

My current oscope isn't fast enough, but if someone has a high bandwidth scope we could set up some tests to see if certain cables are losing information over others. The digital standards have a pretty wide range of error correction, so even marginal digital cables will still create some sound, even if quite a number of the bits end up having to be interoplated by the DAC. That would definately create a difference in the analog output.

I wonder if it would be possible to make some digital to digital recordings using the cable under test as a loopback, and then trim out a specified section of samples, and then do a checksum to verify their integrity. Two cables that create the same checksum recording would sound identical. But if one is loosing some of its bits, then they'd result in a different recording checksum.

And finally, I make digital coax cables out of Canare F-09 RCA connectors, and Canare L-4CFB RG59 video coax. It has a PE insulator, solid core copper conductor, and full foil shield + braided copper shield. If I owned the fancy Canare crimper, I'd use their crimp-on RCA connectors, since they'd maintain shield integrity for an extra cm on each side, not that it would matter that much. I've never had a problem with the cables, and never had any reason to believe that they would sound different than any other digital cable.

peace,
sam
 
phidauex said:
I wonder if it would be possible to make some digital to digital recordings using the cable under test as a loopback, and then trim out a specified section of samples, and then do a checksum to verify their integrity. Two cables that create the same checksum recording would sound identical. But if one is loosing some of its bits, then they'd result in a different recording checksum.
Click to expand...

This seems like an eminently reasonable, one might even say elegant, experiment. As a technophool wanna-be, I have no idea if this would work, but it certainly sounds good. (pardon the pun)

Do we have people interested in setting up and running this experiment? I would be fascinated by both the process and the results.
 
Vandenhul "The First" as a digital interconnect

Hi Folks,

I'm far from an electronics expert, nor an authority on cables, but I purchased a CAL Sigma Delta combination when it first came out and was listening? to several digital interconnects, among them a Levinson Fat Boy.

The Vandenhul is a carbon cable. The Levinson was supposed to be top of the line, selling for over $400.00 for 1/2 meter. I could not detect any difference, so I bought the Vandenhul for $80.00 I still use it today in the same system setup, ie,
B&K ex442 early model dual mono-block design amp, Mccormick ALD1 pre-amp,
McIntosh XRT18 speakers, original Monster Speaker Wire and BIC variable speed tape deck. Shotgun cables connect pre-amp to amp.

My system has a full bodied midrange and is very easy on the ears, but still incredibly detailed.

I think the tube output of the CAL benefited from the Vandenhul product.

I'm thankful I was given several interconnects to take home and audition in my own space and on my own electronics and would suggest the same here.

Regards,

Nick
 
I've had a LOT of luck with Tributaries Silver Digital. I use it on all my rigs with an outboard D/A.

Cheers,
Russ
 
This is an interesting, if fairly technical, read about the SPDIF digital standard, used primarily for sending CD audio over a coaxial cable. Pay particular note to the error correction section, which converts the data to a different format (called a biphase format) which results in no average DC content, as well as the ability to recreate the clock signal at any time. Also note the 'eye patterns', which specify the window in which the decoder can identify a bit successfully. The pattern is about 200mv high, and about 80ns long, which is something we could examine in a good fast osilloscope, to see if distortion is approaching the eye pattern limits for a given cable.

http://members.chello.nl/~m.heijligers/DAChtml/digcom/digcom.html

Also, I looked up the Canare coax, and it shows less than 1dB of attenuation at 6MhZ bandwidth (which the SPDIF is, approximately), so that shouldn't be a problem.

---------

As to my suggested test, I'm thinking now that it may not work to expose a jitter problem. Jitter doesn't affect digital to digital transfers, typically, because the recording device reclocks the data as it comes in. When the conversion to analog conversion comes along, however, the DAC doesn't have time to reclock the data, and it becomes a slave to the incoming clock signal. If there is problem in the output stage or cabling, there can be errors in the clock that the DAC doesn't have time to fix, and an audible problem could be created. Good DACs have a buffer in them, however, and are able to reclock the data before analog conversion, removing the jitter. Unlike most forms of recording problems, jitter isn't cumulative. A 99th generation digital copy being played on a poor DAC will have just as much jitter as the master, even if the poor DAC was used as the recording source for each generation.

I think some sort of examination on a scope would be the best way to tell if there are clocking problems. I'll keep looking into it, I'm sure someone has found a way to test this sort of thing.

peace,
sam
 
RuSsMaN said:
I've had a LOT of luck with Tributaries Silver Digital. I use it on all my rigs with an outboard D/A.
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I second that recommendation, based only upon my own listening in my system.

Somewhere here there is a thread in which some of the more tech types discussed digital cables and explained why the sound can change. IIRC the generalized conclusion was that the farther away the cable is from the "75 ohm" standard (which isn't just an impedence measure), the more likely you are to hear problems. Then, someone had found a link to an article testing high-end digital cables which concluded that the closer to the standard the cable, the better the sound, price being irrelevant. It noted that some high-end cables aren't very close to the standard.

A regular interconnect needn't be anywhere near the standard, which might explain the results for the Kimber cables in the original post. I'll try and find that other thread, but I'm hoping someone with a better memory than me will come up with it!
 
Negotiableterms may be referring to a thread started by emaidel (sp?) that I participated in, but that one is now gone. The initial point being made was that the closer the cable to 75 ohms, the better. But, the story continues from there. Even if you have a perfect 75 ohm cable, if the source and destination are 73 ohms, then this is as bad as having a perfect source and destination with a 73 ohm cable. In other words, matching all three impedances is what is really important. Since it may be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve a perfect 75 ohms in source, cable, and destination, it is highly likely that different digital interconnects will sound different.

phidauex is correct that jitter would be undetectable in his proposed test of digitally recording what comes out of the cable. The easiest way to accomplish what he is looking for is to look at the recovered clock output from the decoder for jitter. Either a jitter analyzer or a phase noise measurement set could do this easily. You could even use a scope, provided it is of sufficient quality to do this.

Heck, I'm thinking of just doing some simple TDR measurements of digital cables to see how close they are to 75 ohms, and how consistent this is along the length of the cable. We could also TDR back into a source or into the destination to determine their impedance as well.
 
Negotiableterms said:
I second that recommendation, based only upon my own listening in my system.

A regular interconnect needn't be anywhere near the standard, which might explain the results for the Kimber cables in the original post. I'll try and find that other thread, but I'm hoping someone with a better memory than me will come up with it!
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Which is why I identified each cables primary design purpose. Digital, Analog etc.

The folks at Kimber Kable when asked about it, confirmed they
are quite aware of the "twins" characteristics they have in the HERO cables. Therefore it is no surprise performance in the Digital Domain according to them.
However, many Analog cables will not sync the digital data stream and refuse to lock. I confirmed this with the Silver Streak se cables. Of the 2 pairs I tested, 2 of the cables sync'd immediately, a third jumped around a little and the fourth failed every time. The Neutrik terminated cables were the problematic of the 2 pairs. Kimber was less enthusiastic about the Sliverstreaks ability to operate in the digital domain. They were right to feel that way.

As I said I would, I sent the PS Audio xStream Back to them for a refund. They were quite gracious as I sent them a copy of my write up, they thanked me and were apologetic as they only have that one cable in their Digital portfolio. Frankly, at another time I may have made that one the cable of choice. For those of you with thin sounding systems, it may be THE Cable to fill in your systems Digital shortcomings.

I would gladly participate in any tests you are considering... count me in. :thmbsp:
 
Kris casually tosses off the acronym "TDR" in the course of "some simple TDR measurements of digital cables". IIRC, TDR stands for "Time Domain Reflectometer" and it's a very expensive box compared to an ohmeter. The point here is that there's a lot more to the 75-ohm standard than just impedence. Sadly, I have no comprehension of what that "more" might be.

Ginovino, I wasn't implying that you'd made any error with the Kimber evaluations; you disclosed everything. I was just trying to relate your results to departures from the 75-ohm standard, which are normal and desireable in analog interconnects. Great reviews, btw!
 
Negotiableterms said:
Kris casually tosses off the acronym "TDR" in the course of "some simple TDR measurements of digital cables". IIRC, TDR stands for "Time Domain Reflectometer" and it's a very expensive box compared to an ohmeter. The point here is that there's a lot more to the 75-ohm standard than just impedence. Sadly, I have no comprehension of what that "more" might be.
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You are absolutely correct with the TDR abbreviation. Luckily I have plenty of very nice equipment at my disposal, and doing TDR measurements is a part of my job. Perhaps that is why I was so casual in mentioning it. I'll try and set up an RCA jig on my TDR box and do some measurements of cables soon. When that happens, I post here or in a new thread. If it all works out, I could measure cables for others, but what's the point. Knowing the characteristic impedance is nice, but without knowing the source impedance or the destination impedance, it is hard to tell if you've got a match.
 
I was able to locate a couple of adapters to allow me to measure cables with RCA terminations on them. On the way out of the house this morning, I grabbed a video cable from the storage box to test out the setup. To my shock, this turned out to be a 50 ohm cable. The cable under test is a pack-in cable that came with one of my Mitsubishi VCRs. It has yellow jackets on the RCA terminations which has come to imply usage for video (the manual also says this). All consumer video systems I know of are 75 ohms.

I've attached a picture of this cable being TDR'd. For those unfamiliar with TDRs, I'll try to give a quick overview. Starting from the left side of the trace, the signal is very low (close to 0 ohms) where the amplifier drives the line, then jumps to a nearly perfect 50 ohms for the transmission line inside the TDR plug-in to the jack on the front panel. The dip (to about 18 ohms) is the adapters I had to use to connect an RCA cable. From there on, it is the cable under test. The rise at the right end is where the cable ends and we go the the infinite impedance of no more transmission line. I put the two markers on the lowest and highet impedances found. The lowest corresponds to a kink in the cable where it was folded when the manufacurer put it into the box.

Now I would really like to get some of these cables ginovino reviewed which started this all. Might be interesting to see exactly what the Kimber Hero looks like.
 

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House de Kris said:
The lowest corresponds to a kink in the cable where it was folded when the manufacurer put it into the box.
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Wow... I had been told that bending a digital cable could cause problems, but was mystified as to how and why.

Kris, would you consider writing a plain-English explanation of what a TDR does and the 75-ohm standard and bends in cables and such for the Digital Formats forum and here? I'd make it a sticky over there.
 
Will make a sticky of it here too. Awesome info guys. You are gonna make this a great forum!
 
Alright, I'm gonna put in my 2 cents.

While I am of complete conviction that audio, with all its mysteries and irregularities (ever heard of equal temperment?) is prone to, shall we say, indescribable variances, I don't buy the cable thing one bit. :no:

Listen, NO disrespect to those of you with much better equipment than I have (ears included) but Julian Hirsch said himself he's never heard a difference between cd players, factoring out the Dig 2 Analog converters. I did the whole "Isolating material" thing on my cd players, and even a/b 'ed the best cd player I got through toslink with authentic HDCD versus a cheap burn through crappy rca's and I found.......NO DIFFERENCE. None. Nada. PERHAPS some soundfield "depth" with the toslink/hdcd, but nothing to even fret over.

When will this end?? I mean, COME ON! You actually hear much better on an empty stomach than with a full belly. This is a physical FACT. Will we all starve for sonic nirvana?? Methinks not. How about ear wax?? Think a good ear candling won't improve sound?

And besides, room acoustics are MUCH MORE of a factor than cables and interconnects. Speaker placement, room damping factor, pillows on your couch, the 4 yr old's toys, bookshelves, etc etc etc.

I mean no disrespect, but I'm starting to feel like some sort of tone-deaf ingenue, and I've got perfect pitch and great hearing. So, what gives??

I'm sure I'm gonna get my ass kicked, and deservedly so. The start of this thread stated no cable wars.

I'm simply feeling left out.
 
Hey, I hear what you are saying. Up until just a little while ago, I didn't buy it either. But then it was proven to me that it does make a difference in my system. How? I heard it. I was sure it wouldn't make a difference, but it was clear as day when it happened. My wife heard it, and she probably doesn't even know there are cables between components. :D You can read about it in my post about the Grover cables.
This is why we have our cable tests/trials going on. Sign up for some of the cables. Russ will put you on the list. Try them in your home. Spend two weeks listening to them and then report back what you hear. If you don't hear anything, that is cool too.All it is gonna cost you is the postage onto the next guy. Fair enough?

Oh, and there ain't gonna be any wars here. No ones ass is gonna get kicked. Just ain't gonna happen. This is an educational forum. We are all here to learn and pass on what we have learned. No need for battles here.


onwardjames said:
Alright, I'm gonna put in my 2 cents.

While I am of complete conviction that audio, with all its mysteries and irregularities (ever heard of equal temperment?) is prone to, shall we say, indescribable variances, I don't buy the cable thing one bit. :no:

Listen, NO disrespect to those of you with much better equipment than I have (ears included) but Julian Hirsch said himself he's never heard a difference between cd players, factoring out the Dig 2 Analog converters. I did the whole "Isolating material" thing on my cd players, and even a/b 'ed the best cd player I got through toslink with authentic HDCD versus a cheap burn through crappy rca's and I found.......NO DIFFERENCE. None. Nada. PERHAPS some soundfield "depth" with the toslink/hdcd, but nothing to even fret over.

When will this end?? I mean, COME ON! You actually hear much better on an empty stomach than with a full belly. This is a physical FACT. Will we all starve for sonic nirvana?? Methinks not. How about ear wax?? Think a good ear candling won't improve sound?

And besides, room acoustics are MUCH MORE of a factor than cables and interconnects. Speaker placement, room damping factor, pillows on your couch, the 4 yr old's toys, bookshelves, etc etc etc.

I mean no disrespect, but I'm starting to feel like some sort of tone-deaf ingenue, and I've got perfect pitch and great hearing. So, what gives??

I'm sure I'm gonna get my ass kicked, and deservedly so. The start of this thread stated no cable wars.

I'm simply feeling left out.
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I, too, have always discounted the high end claims, and thanks to Russman, and everybody else here, we can finally audition some of them on our own gear and evaluate and discuss the topic. The price is right, the only thing left to do is get on the lists and hear for yourself. Just be fair on the assessment.
If it doesn't make my stuff sound better, i'll put the money into more $1.00 records.
 
Strawman said:
I, too, have always discounted the high end claims, and thanks to Russman, and everybody else here, we can finally audition some of them on our own gear and evaluate and discuss the topic. The price is right, the only thing left to do is get on the lists and hear for yourself. Just be fair on the assessment.
If it doesn't make my stuff sound better, i'll put the money into more $1.00 records.
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Awesome Strawman!
That is the point of this exercise. There is so much BS around the whole cable thing, so finally we can actually have real, live average people test cables in their own systems and present the results. No worries about being "bought" by the cable manufacturers!
We are making history here! :)
 
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