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Ohm F speakers... What did I just get myself into???
- Thread starter elgato8905
- Start date
Brad Muller
Super Member
Nice score Elgato. You gave him the asking price and he threw in a free 8080db. I've had the same thing happen to me before on a couple of occasions. When I bought my Marantz rack for $100.00 the guy threw in a pair of ESS Tempest Heil speakers. When I was carting all the gear home, I wondered what I had gotten myself into also. I had major gear to deal with. Nice score though....anyway you look at it.:yes: Congrats!
Brian
An Old Geezer
Interesting to hear these have become a cult speaker. Ohm was a captive speaker company for Tech Hi-Fi for a number of years and was owned by one of the two Tech owners. John, I think is still active in Ohm. The F was pushed by the Tech guys as it had a really great spiff attached to each sale. As for those who sold it, opinion was pretty much split as to whether they liked them enough that they'd put the cash n the counter and take a set home. I had one employee who did buy a set. More were buying Powered Advents and the big A/D/S L1290 with built in amps.
I thought they were a mixed bag having very low distortion that almost no dynamic driver could match, you had to go to horns or e'stats to get that low. I never could get used to the "surround" sound they presented and could only equate it to a set of Bose 901s though it was better as it was not a mess (whoops mass) of individual drivers.
With the right amp and with the listening room tuned for them they could be a really good speaker but the room tuning is critical and much of what is published in room tuning doe not quite work.
I thought they were a mixed bag having very low distortion that almost no dynamic driver could match, you had to go to horns or e'stats to get that low. I never could get used to the "surround" sound they presented and could only equate it to a set of Bose 901s though it was better as it was not a mess (whoops mass) of individual drivers.
With the right amp and with the listening room tuned for them they could be a really good speaker but the room tuning is critical and much of what is published in room tuning doe not quite work.
bebopdeluxe
Well-Known Member
It would be interresting to think of what could have happened to the market acceptance of the Ohm F (and of the Walsh-designed driver in general) had the the original design incorporated the modifications that Bill LeGall has made to the magnet/spider...thereby allowing the speaker to be driven at much lower volumes.
Whether you like the image or soundstage that the F creates or not, it certainly is a differentiated approach to speaker design that has many desirable attributes. Unfortunately, it was also a design that - due to the inability to place the magnet in the proper place - led to problems in the execution of the design in practice. For those of us who have F's that have been rebuilt by Bill - with his essential tweak of the spiders - they are now a speaker that allows the original Lincoln Walsh design to be enjoyed on an every-day basis at real-world volumes.
Whether you like the image or soundstage that the F creates or not, it certainly is a differentiated approach to speaker design that has many desirable attributes. Unfortunately, it was also a design that - due to the inability to place the magnet in the proper place - led to problems in the execution of the design in practice. For those of us who have F's that have been rebuilt by Bill - with his essential tweak of the spiders - they are now a speaker that allows the original Lincoln Walsh design to be enjoyed on an every-day basis at real-world volumes.
jstang
Honey,I can't hear you...
I am not sure that market acceptance was limited by the general design....?
I thought the price killed it off.... after all the price went from about 700$ a pair in the early 70's to 4000$ a pair in the early 80's.... Early 80s were tough economic times and 4000$ speakers were not that popular...
In the 80's OHM introduced the Walsh 1's and the 2's.... at about 600$ a pair they fit the pocketbook a lot better....
The custom manufacturing of the driver drove the price and the difficult nature of it. What I was told ( by the OHM designer ) that the Titanium parts ( upper cone ) were becoming more and more expensive and hard to come by. The cold war was demanding/commanding all Titanium in the market.... And John at Ohm did not want to bother with finding some other material that would work just as well. They had tried many different materials and settled on Titanium. Other materials could work but were even more expensive.
Least that is how it was explained to me....
I thought the price killed it off.... after all the price went from about 700$ a pair in the early 70's to 4000$ a pair in the early 80's.... Early 80s were tough economic times and 4000$ speakers were not that popular...
In the 80's OHM introduced the Walsh 1's and the 2's.... at about 600$ a pair they fit the pocketbook a lot better....
The custom manufacturing of the driver drove the price and the difficult nature of it. What I was told ( by the OHM designer ) that the Titanium parts ( upper cone ) were becoming more and more expensive and hard to come by. The cold war was demanding/commanding all Titanium in the market.... And John at Ohm did not want to bother with finding some other material that would work just as well. They had tried many different materials and settled on Titanium. Other materials could work but were even more expensive.
Least that is how it was explained to me....
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bebopdeluxe
Well-Known Member
jstang:
I agree with much of what you have said - I am sure that price had a lot to do with it...but I also think that there still would have been demand for the speaker if it wasn't so hard to drive. I don't know about many AKers out there, but I would think that there weren't a lot of high-end enthusiasts out there back in the day that were driving 200 watts of Miles Davis on a regular basis.
If it wasn't for LeGall's spider tweak, I doubt that I could use the F's in my situation...but fortunately - because of the ability to drive these speakers at very reasonable levels - I can enjoy them.
I agree with much of what you have said - I am sure that price had a lot to do with it...but I also think that there still would have been demand for the speaker if it wasn't so hard to drive. I don't know about many AKers out there, but I would think that there weren't a lot of high-end enthusiasts out there back in the day that were driving 200 watts of Miles Davis on a regular basis.
If it wasn't for LeGall's spider tweak, I doubt that I could use the F's in my situation...but fortunately - because of the ability to drive these speakers at very reasonable levels - I can enjoy them.
There is a lot of mis-information about Ohm and especially on the Ohm F.
1. Ohm was not a captive company of Tech HiFi. I probably single handedly sold over a hundred pair of Ohm F and over a thousand pair of Ohm Acoustic loudspeakers and never worked for Tech Hi Fi. Was there an affiliation, perhaps. I do believe Tech Hi Fi was their largest dealer, but there were many other dealers throughout the world.
2. The last pairs of Ohm Fs I sold, before leaving the business were $ 5,500/pair.
3. In all of the demos I did of the Ohm Fs, not one person ever left without great respect for the speaker. Many resulted in instant or near instant sales. In the days of quad gear, I sold two pair to several customers.
4. If there was a HiFi salesman on the planet that really knew Ohm Fs, I doubt they didn't seriously consider them worthy of plunking quite a bit of money on.
5. They were reviewed in several HiFi magazines and I do not recall one slightly negative review. In the words of one review, "If they are not the best speaker available, they are certainly among the top few".
6. The last I knew, Ohm Acoustics does not make replacement parts for Ohm Fs. Nor will they re-build them. They will sell you their new versions, which I have never heard and offer a trade in value for your old drivers. Additionally, they outright purchased the last pair of Ohm As that I saw for sale on Ebay. I unsuccessfully tried to buy them myself.. :sigh:
7. It was not a difficult speaker to drive. There's no crossover. Impedance range isn't off the chart. You just need a big engine. I always ran big SAE amps.
8. Reportedly, there was one man who built all of the Ohm F drivers by hand. When he retired, production and replacements ceased.
FWIW, there is a guy, Dale Harder, near Cleveland that can do a complete and total rebuild and even is building new "improved" drivers of both the Ohm F and its bigger brother the Ohm A.
I'd like to add one big tip: Use a subsonic filter (high pass) on them. They will try to reproduce everything you send them and with the amplifier wattage they need (absolute minimum 200/ch), if there is low frequency energy (like from a warped record), the cone will top out (bottom out.. as they're upside down) in the gap. If you see a cone with crinkles in the TITANIUM (top metal band) it has been bottomed out. Further, if there is DC energy, the VC will heat up.
Any good rebuild of Ohm F should include spider replacement, foam and goop replacement inside the cone and new surrounds. Anything short of that will leave the speaker in less than ideal shape. Highs will be rolled off and it will sound anemic. When they are 100%, they are impressive in almost any respect except with regard to efficiency, loud SPL and very loud dynamics.
Did I mention: when they are working correctly, they are simply an incredible speaker. As in any speaker, there are trade offs, but Ohm Fs get a lot of things very right. In a normal room and moderate and below listening levels, they are damn tough to beat.
FWIW, I still own a pair of Ohm F and Ohm G (Fs little brother) that I purchased new in the 70s while I was a hifi salesman.. Yep, I am opinionated when it comes to the Ohm F.. :yes:
1. Ohm was not a captive company of Tech HiFi. I probably single handedly sold over a hundred pair of Ohm F and over a thousand pair of Ohm Acoustic loudspeakers and never worked for Tech Hi Fi. Was there an affiliation, perhaps. I do believe Tech Hi Fi was their largest dealer, but there were many other dealers throughout the world.
2. The last pairs of Ohm Fs I sold, before leaving the business were $ 5,500/pair.
3. In all of the demos I did of the Ohm Fs, not one person ever left without great respect for the speaker. Many resulted in instant or near instant sales. In the days of quad gear, I sold two pair to several customers.
4. If there was a HiFi salesman on the planet that really knew Ohm Fs, I doubt they didn't seriously consider them worthy of plunking quite a bit of money on.
5. They were reviewed in several HiFi magazines and I do not recall one slightly negative review. In the words of one review, "If they are not the best speaker available, they are certainly among the top few".
6. The last I knew, Ohm Acoustics does not make replacement parts for Ohm Fs. Nor will they re-build them. They will sell you their new versions, which I have never heard and offer a trade in value for your old drivers. Additionally, they outright purchased the last pair of Ohm As that I saw for sale on Ebay. I unsuccessfully tried to buy them myself.. :sigh:
7. It was not a difficult speaker to drive. There's no crossover. Impedance range isn't off the chart. You just need a big engine. I always ran big SAE amps.
8. Reportedly, there was one man who built all of the Ohm F drivers by hand. When he retired, production and replacements ceased.
FWIW, there is a guy, Dale Harder, near Cleveland that can do a complete and total rebuild and even is building new "improved" drivers of both the Ohm F and its bigger brother the Ohm A.
I'd like to add one big tip: Use a subsonic filter (high pass) on them. They will try to reproduce everything you send them and with the amplifier wattage they need (absolute minimum 200/ch), if there is low frequency energy (like from a warped record), the cone will top out (bottom out.. as they're upside down) in the gap. If you see a cone with crinkles in the TITANIUM (top metal band) it has been bottomed out. Further, if there is DC energy, the VC will heat up.
Any good rebuild of Ohm F should include spider replacement, foam and goop replacement inside the cone and new surrounds. Anything short of that will leave the speaker in less than ideal shape. Highs will be rolled off and it will sound anemic. When they are 100%, they are impressive in almost any respect except with regard to efficiency, loud SPL and very loud dynamics.
Did I mention: when they are working correctly, they are simply an incredible speaker. As in any speaker, there are trade offs, but Ohm Fs get a lot of things very right. In a normal room and moderate and below listening levels, they are damn tough to beat.
FWIW, I still own a pair of Ohm F and Ohm G (Fs little brother) that I purchased new in the 70s while I was a hifi salesman.. Yep, I am opinionated when it comes to the Ohm F.. :yes:
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jstang
Honey,I can't hear you...
I agree they are a difficult speaker to drive. No question. Especially for the vintage amps of the 70's.
But many of today's amplifiers have great damping and power delivery....back in the day of OHM F, maybe a hand full of amps could do a very good job of it....
Today's higher end amps "should" have no problem.... I would think there are well over 10 if not more amps that would do it justice today. Just to name a few, I can think of several Crown and Carver amps that should fit the bill. And that is just from two manufactures.
Back in early 70's ? Maybe 3 or 4 amps would be in that class....? My big Marantz, the large vintage Crown was highly recommend by the F designer ( it is what he uses ).... Maybe the MC2300. Later 70's saw more choices in amps like the Soundcraftsman.
My two cents is that today it is easier to find a modern amp design that can do justice for the F design.
But if you want to stay vintage early 70's, your choices in amps will be limited.
I have driven mine with vintage gear only... Large 125 WPC (actual 180 wpc ) vintage receiver did not cut it.... A large SoundCraftsman MA5001a, did a nice job but was lacking a little damping factor that could heard.... and the Marantz 500 that can drive them all day long without breaking a sweat & makes them really sing...
I think amp designs have caught up the F, but I drive mine with vintage.
jk
But many of today's amplifiers have great damping and power delivery....back in the day of OHM F, maybe a hand full of amps could do a very good job of it....
Today's higher end amps "should" have no problem.... I would think there are well over 10 if not more amps that would do it justice today. Just to name a few, I can think of several Crown and Carver amps that should fit the bill. And that is just from two manufactures.
Back in early 70's ? Maybe 3 or 4 amps would be in that class....? My big Marantz, the large vintage Crown was highly recommend by the F designer ( it is what he uses ).... Maybe the MC2300. Later 70's saw more choices in amps like the Soundcraftsman.
My two cents is that today it is easier to find a modern amp design that can do justice for the F design.
But if you want to stay vintage early 70's, your choices in amps will be limited.
I have driven mine with vintage gear only... Large 125 WPC (actual 180 wpc ) vintage receiver did not cut it.... A large SoundCraftsman MA5001a, did a nice job but was lacking a little damping factor that could heard.... and the Marantz 500 that can drive them all day long without breaking a sweat & makes them really sing...
I think amp designs have caught up the F, but I drive mine with vintage.
jk
jstang
Honey,I can't hear you...
5,500$ in 1980's was out of reach of many folks in the recession days of the early 80's....
The Ohm F craftsman retired and moved back to South America, he was a machinist by trade and custom made the VCs himself to OHM's design. Besides all the other tooling.
You can look up the patent for the VC and for the Walsh driver on the US patent site.
The F and A only become possible with the invention of the VC which OHM holds the patent for. The VC design was critical to handle the power required to drive the Walsh Cone.... Prior to development of the patented VC, they were melting VC's of the typical designs back then.
Those two patents are very cool reads if you are an Ohm F/A fan. You can search the US patent site or later today if I get time I will post links.
jk
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It was in 1978 when I left the business, well before the recession of the 80s. The price was rarely negotiated down, unless I bundled them into a system.. usually with SAE gear. Actually, I think finding people to spend $5500 on a pair of speakers was easier then, than it would be now. It really wasn't uncommon to sell a system over $15K to someone who walked in. It was the golden era of Hi Fi..
The boxes did not collect dust in our stockroom.
bebopdeluxe
Well-Known Member
I drive my Millersound-rebuilt F's with an Echowars-rebuilt Sansui AU-919 with ease...Bill LeGall drives his F's with a generic 100 wpc amp that he bought from J&R Music for around $100. Obviously, he has found a way to seat the magnet in such a way that the speaker simply needs less power to perform effectively.
I spent time talking to Dale Harder as well...and my sense is that he does a very faithful representation of the Lincoln Walsh design. I was giving some thought to buying a pair of his HHR speakers before I saw the F's I now own on A'gon.
I spent time talking to Dale Harder as well...and my sense is that he does a very faithful representation of the Lincoln Walsh design. I was giving some thought to buying a pair of his HHR speakers before I saw the F's I now own on A'gon.
jstang
Honey,I can't hear you...
Less distractions back then in the golden era for the disposable income... today, Ipod, Iphone, Laptap, HDTV, dvd,....and on and on....
jk
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elgato8905
Nobody special.
I'm hoping to hear a pair soon too
.Thank you to everyone who gave me info on these speakers. I've been watching closely from the sidelines and trying to figure out how I'm going to play it. One way or another they will get back to working condition although it may take some time. I was wondering if anyone who has taken these drivers to get the complete refurb could give me an idea of what the cost was to get each driver repaired. I'm not just talking about a refoam but a complete rebuild with new spiders, inner foam and all. Please if somebody could give me an idea of what they paid for each driver and who exactly did it and what was done I would really appreciate it. Ultimately the price of a major repair is what's going to be the deciding factor of whether or not I will keep them or pass them on to someone else. I'm not going to make any rash decisions... I'm just trying to get an idea of the cost if it comes down to that. I am going to try and hunt down some foams and replace them and see how that works out. I figure I don't really have much to lose by doing that and I'm pretty sure it's a job I can handle. As far as I can tell, the motor and the general way the speaker works is just like any other coned speaker so doing a reform shouldn't be much different.
Once again everyone... Thanks!!! :thmbsp:
-Greg-
Pio1980
AK Member
I would read thru this before even considering doing anything to them.
http://www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com/documents/Ohm F and A.pdf
If the cones are in good undamaged cdx they will be easier and less expensive for a pro (either Dale or Bill) to do them. If they get damaged somehow working on them then that's something else.
http://www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com/documents/Ohm F and A.pdf
If the cones are in good undamaged cdx they will be easier and less expensive for a pro (either Dale or Bill) to do them. If they get damaged somehow working on them then that's something else.
Good luck to you on those F's Greg. I'm sure they'll be well worth the effort once you get them up and running.
It's a shame that ak member jstrohbeen won't chime in with some great advice. Especially since he does keep tabs on the ohm related threads. He's the guy that's probably forgotten more than any of us know about these unique speakers.
It's a shame that ak member jstrohbeen won't chime in with some great advice. Especially since he does keep tabs on the ohm related threads. He's the guy that's probably forgotten more than any of us know about these unique speakers.