rwartner
Super Member
Sorry for confusion, as kindly pointed out I made a typo in post #48. Should be 86MB compared to 411MB (approx.). Point is of course that compressed/lossy files are smaller than uncompressed/lossless files.
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Ok here goes: One mans experience and opinion about the over sampling ripping of ALL HIS CDs ...
- Thread starter Bill Ferris
- Start date
Sorry for confusion, as kindly pointed out I made a typo in post #48. Should be 86MB compared to 411MB (approx.). Point is of course that compressed/lossy files are smaller than uncompressed/lossless files.
You are right, $10 a month is a real bargain. However, it is an every month expenditure, tacked onto every other monthly expense. I for one dislike these mounting monthly payments, such as software subscriptions like MS Office or photoshop or whatever that have all gone subscription based because when you stop paying, much of the work that you put into it vanishes as well. Take Tidal for instance. If you are like me (perhaps not) you like to listen to your favorite tracks more often and save it to your favorite playlists and whatnot. What happens to all the favorite stuff when you stop paying, or they get bought up and dismantled, or go broke etc? To think that the only reason one doesn't flock to streaming is that they are cheap, and or would rather steal their music isn't at all accurate IMO.I know that people stream, I'm not some crazy denier.However, if $10! a month is the going rate and people are too cheap to pony up for that, I'm not so sure UofM's predictions will come true. Bundling as an incentive, sure, why not. Lowering to, say $5 and praying that people will STILL stop being cheap.... I'm not so sure. I don my pessimism cap.
I do currently have a Tidal account for auditioning new music but I would never have that as my sole source. I want the music I enjoy to always be around, and I want to have it served up in a way I like, using Metadata to create playlists based on what I am in the mood for at the moment.
Maybe someday streaming will take over completely, but I don't think we are quite there yet, at least for me.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Ok KrisM, yesterday I ripped 15 MFSL CDs WAV lossless 600 MB per CD(2.5 Gig. total file size) for a extended listening test).. I then transferred to a formatted thumb drive to play on my media lap-top from the thumb drive after setting WMP to repeat & shuffle.. I am going to let it run like this for a few days feeding my stereos in 4 rooms of my house(my daily background music) so the jury is still out.. Tonight when my 2 fellow audiofool friends drop in I will run the thumb drive in my OPPO BDP 103 for a while before we start watching a DVD to hear what it sounds like on my fairly high resolution living room system, but will not indicate to them that this music playing is any different in ripping quality as before.. I have used EAC, FOOBAR, and MEDIA MONKEY(paid gold version) but like WMP best for it`s simplicity.. Thanks for your suggestions and interest.. Regards, OKB
uofmtiger
Addicted Member
If you look back, you will see that I was not the one that initially brought up streaming, but I do take credit for responding, and responding and responding......etc.....etc...etc..Boy howdy did this thread ever get hi-jacked....I lay blame on uofmtiger!
To be clear, my prediction was that prices would not go up in any substantial way (outside of inflation). In reality, it is not much of a prediction, because as I have already said, the cost per user has gone down with every new package...student.. family...echo. If you are crediting me with the study I linked, it didn't say that everyone would jump in and start paying just because they lowered the price. It was more about picking the right price to gain the most number of users and to make the most money. It wasn't a prediction, but more of am opinion of what the services should do. It did not predict that they would follow their suggestion. Of course, the services have already lowered the overall price per user, so I guess the services listened.
As a side note, my response was to the person that said "My rates for everything related to streaming have gone up". That person is an outlier compared to most users. My guess is that they are an audiophile that is now paying $20 instead of $10. That was not an increase in price for streaming. It is an audiophile tax that audiophiles pay for everything.
I'm a late comer to this thread and was afraid that is what happened. Sorry.
I do, however, have a suggestion for spending a few bucks to purchase a product that I find far superior to free offerings like Windows Media and EAC. It's called dbPoweramp and is wonderful. It automates the tagging process and facilitates a lookup if the cover art is not readily found. Another nice feature is that it includes a batch converter. While I ripped all my content to FLAC, I sometimes need a different format for other devices. My new Honda truck requires MP3 so I needed a quick way to transcode thousands of tracks to a different format. It was very easy to cue up my entire collection to create an alternate 320Mbps LAME encoded library. It's a great application.
BTW, I have a number of 24/192 downloads from HDTracks. Regarding the comments about file sizing, each track runs 90-110MB with the album size over 1GB! And while that is lossless, it does employ some compression. Most of my hi-rez downloads, however, are 24/96 and I find that bridges the audible performance gap between the best of analog and digital.
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KrisM
Lunatic Member
Preference in a ripping program is so personal.
I had EAC setup to rip to either WAV or MP3 for years, and then tried to get it set for FLAC. Fought like hell with it, and never got it sorted out. I ended up doing a complete re-install, and can't be happier.
KrisM
Lunatic Member
Is the cover art lookup process with db any better than a google search + drag/drop in EAC?
Is an auto tag lookup in db any better than the one in EAC?
Is putting Windows Media in the same conversation as EAC and db a fair thing today? I have no idea, I thought using WMP for ripping wasn't a thing anymore unless you wanted it quick.
+48V
hi-fi or die
Yup, saw that, knew that. Was just giving you a friendly sarcastic scapegoat prod.If you look back, you will see that I was not the one that initially brought up streaming, but I do take credit for responding, and responding and responding......etc.....etc...etc..
Nice ramble BTW. I'm sure this rebuttal is directed at the rest of the crowd cause I have no issues or necessary contrary opinion with your take and/or crystal ball. Me personally, yer preachin' to the choir here mate.To be clear, my prediction was that prices would not go up in any substantial way (outside of inflation). In reality, it is not much of a prediction, because as I have already said, the cost per user has gone down with every new package...student.. family...echo. If you are crediting me with the study I linked, it didn't say that everyone would jump in and start paying just because they lowered the price. It was more about picking the right price to gain the most number of users and to make the most money. It wasn't a prediction, but more of am opinion of what the services should do. It did not predict that they would follow their suggestion. Of course, the services have already lowered the overall price per user, so I guess the services listened.
As a side note, my response was to the person that said "My rates for everything related to streaming have gone up". That person is an outlier compared to most users. My guess is that they are an audiophile that is now paying $20 instead of $10. That was not an increase in price for streaming. It is an audiophile tax that audiophiles pay for everything.
+48V
hi-fi or die
Help me out. What/which uofmtiger prediction are you referring to?I know that people stream, I'm not some crazy denier.
uofmtiger
Addicted Member
I knew that. I was just responding in sarcasm-lite.Yup, saw that, knew that. Was just giving you a friendly sarcastic scapegoat prod.
I'm sure this rebuttal is directed at the rest of the crowd cause I have no issues or necessary contrary opinion with your take and/or crystal ball. Me personally, yer preachin' to the choir here mate.
No, I was rebutting the idea, from another member, that I was making some prediction that prices would fall. Never made that prediction. I said prices probably would not go up, but if they did, I, like everyone else, was not required to continue paying for it. (how was that for a quick summary of my past 5 posts?
)
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Preference in a ripping program is so personal.
I had EAC setup to rip to either WAV or MP3 for years, and then tried to get it set for FLAC. Fought like hell with it, and never got it sorted out. I ended up doing a complete re-install, and can't be happier.
dodog
Addicted Member
My bad, it's not UofM's prediction, just the "theory" that the fusion article he linked to stated. $10/mth is too much, etc. I'm standing firm though, even if they were to charge $5/mth, people would not pony up, at least not in the numbers they would need to actually turn a profit. Before I get jumped on, that also assumes that all players stay in this game, forces aren't joined, Apple can't use music as services, to swallow this up, etc. etc. I'm strictly talking about, like instances with Spotify and Tidal, businesses that are losing money, year after year, trying to sell streaming music. I'm a responsible adult, I pay my own bills but I know more people that leech off their parent's streaming accounts, cell plans, Costco memberships, etc. These are the same people that buy $5 cups of coffee, get the latest and greatest tech (laptops, cell phones, fitbits, Apple Watches), etc. This is the demographic that these companies need to tap into to make money but I really don't see people changing their ways, in enough numbers for it to matter. Time will tell, it will be fun to watch. If I'm wrong? Oh well. No skin off my teeth either way. It reminds me of the (what seems like 4x per year) NPR pledge drives. For just a few dollars a day, maybe a month, if everyone would just chip in we could end this drive now!
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
Well +48V, I thought you might want to know that I ripped 15 MFSL(133 songs)CDs in the WAV lossless mode day before yesterday.. I then transferred the 2.5Gig test ripping to a thumb drive so I could play it on either one of my two similar Win. 10 (64 bit) media music lap-tops(1 USB connected, & the other S/PDIF coax connected to my DAC`s input switch) and my OPPO BDP 103.. After listening to the high res lossless test ripping playing for about 16 hrs. exposure time I`m not sure of any great amount of difference.. There is difference though(lower perceived output level, a little more open and airy sounding). This is of course just my first impressions and not conclusive as the high res ripping testing has not been played long enough.. I will for what it`s worth post later on as I spend more time checking it out with some other MFSL CD test selections as well.. Take care. Regards, OKBGood deal OKB.
A picture is worth a thousand words as they say. I now see why myself and others questioned your indubitably phenomenal claim of garnering 24/192 rips via WMP. Appears that it was a simple nomenclature confusion issue/misuse.
As rwartner suggested earlier, it appears you innocently conflated/mistook kbps per second with kHz. In other words, bits per second vs. samples per second. So when you stated 24/192 that was taken as 24 bits at 192 samples per second. What you are doing in WMP is 192 kbps...not 192 kHz sampling.
Lossy (compressed audio like WMA or MP3) has no bit depth per se. So the "24" was perplexing. Lossy audio is simply referred to as 64, 128,192, 256, 320 kbps. When it comes to digital audio those pesky k's, b's, and Hz's deserve a pretty significant distinction. The further you progress down the digital audio hole the more you'll learn and appreciate. ---I see now that you've since edited your initial post dispensing with the 24/.
Yes, the, for me, learning curve, being that I`m still untrusting my music to computer ripping & local(non internet)
My bad, it's not UofM's prediction, just the "theory" that the fusion article he linked to stated. $10/mth is too much, etc. I'm standing firm though, even if they were to charge $5/mth, people would not pony up, at least not in the numbers they would need to actually turn a profit. Before I get jumped on, that also assumes that all players stay in this game, forces aren't joined, Apple can't use music as services, to swallow this up, etc. etc. I'm strictly talking about, like instances with Spotify and Tidal, businesses that are losing money, year after year, trying to sell streaming music. I'm a responsible adult, I pay my own bills but I know more people that leech off their parent's streaming accounts, cell plans, Costco memberships, etc. These are the same people that buy $5 cups of coffee, get the latest and greatest tech (laptops, cell phones, fitbits, Apple Watches), etc. This is the demographic that these companies need to tap into to make money but I really don't see people changing their ways, in enough numbers for it to matter. Time will tell, it will be fun to watch. If I'm wrong? Oh well. No skin off my teeth either way. It reminds me of the (what seems like 4x per year) NPR pledge drives. For just a few dollars a day, maybe a month, if everyone would just chip in we could end this drive now!
streaming
With as nice a rig as you have, at some point please do try some lossless 16/44.1 CD rips. You more than likely will be amazed all over again.
In any event, good luck with your journey and enjoy.
Bill Ferris
Lunatic Member
ALREADY DID, as indicated in earlier post.. No FLAC rip test yet.. If I end up accepting WAV lossless as justifiable(meaning worthwhile for re-ripe all 1000 + CDs at same) then I`ll gladly purchase larger SSDs for the two dedicated music streaming Lap-tops and rip to WAV Lossless.. I`m not comfortable adding another computer process(FLAC) encoding & then another decoding on top of the already slicing the music up again to rip.. Just the way I feel about computer music delivery systems(as I have conveyed previously: I don`t totally trust computer music streaming .. Take care Sir. Thanks for your input rwartner
rwartner
Super Member
I would rip Windows Media Audio Lossless (WMA) instead of WAV. Shouldn't sound any different though.
I made another typo recommending to experiment with WAV, should have said WMA.
If your laptops have USB 3.0, it is fast enough to use external 3.0 USB drive instead of SSD. I have 2,200 CDs ripped on external USB. 1TB and its getting full.
Everyone has reasons or preferences as to their choice of music software. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but you may have certain requirements that make one more suitable. I don't have special requirements so WMP works fine for me.
I feel the same about FLAC and streaming. From all the reviews and recommendations, we know FLAC works fine, but that is personal choice. Large disk drives are now cheap so compressing files isn't as important. When I started doing this about 12 years ago, we didn't have TB drives, so compressing files was common.
MP3 320 sounds fine and most folks might not be able to tell the difference from lossless. There is no guarantee that ripping lossless will sound better. My thought is with the investment I have made in hardware and CDs I would be crazy not to rip lossless, just to make sure I am squeezing out all I can get. Squeezing?
I made another typo recommending to experiment with WAV, should have said WMA.
If your laptops have USB 3.0, it is fast enough to use external 3.0 USB drive instead of SSD. I have 2,200 CDs ripped on external USB. 1TB and its getting full.
Everyone has reasons or preferences as to their choice of music software. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but you may have certain requirements that make one more suitable. I don't have special requirements so WMP works fine for me.
I feel the same about FLAC and streaming. From all the reviews and recommendations, we know FLAC works fine, but that is personal choice. Large disk drives are now cheap so compressing files isn't as important. When I started doing this about 12 years ago, we didn't have TB drives, so compressing files was common.
MP3 320 sounds fine and most folks might not be able to tell the difference from lossless. There is no guarantee that ripping lossless will sound better. My thought is with the investment I have made in hardware and CDs I would be crazy not to rip lossless, just to make sure I am squeezing out all I can get. Squeezing?
The two issues with uncompressed files like Wav is the Metadata requires there to be in a separate "sidecar" file that can get separated and lost among all the files. FLAC or the like sounds the same (is the same Sq wise), is simple to create and has the considerable advantages of having all Metadata contained within the FLAC file itself so that data will always be there with the file. That fact alone makes lossless compression a must for me. Of course everyone else is different with different needs but the advantages (less drive space, no sidecar files) outweigh the disadvantages (none),that IMO, people considering consolidation of their cd collections should do FLAC or similar.
Gotta love a market that is too tight to pay $10/month, or even a petty $5.00 for unlimited music, but drops $5.00 for a single cup of coffee or $300 for headphones to listen to 128 mp3s on their cell phone. 
I've been on Spotify Premium for probably 2+ years and love it. I use it quite a bit to audition stuff and if I save $10/month by not buying a CD I'm making money. It was a real joy to have to last weekend when I drove from Denver back to Detroit and listened to some downloads I saved in the no cell coverage plains of eastern Colorado and western Kansas. We're talking 100s of miles and hours of no service. No ripping from CD or vinyl, I just searched and downloaded at home from my network and all was set in less than 10 minutes.
Sure helped through this...
![20170228_110033[1].jpg](https://audiokarma.org/forums/data/attachments/755/755575-fda97e6503132cbcfec19da696eb11ce.jpg?hash=_al-ZQMTLL "20170228_110033[1].jpg")
I've been on Spotify Premium for probably 2+ years and love it. I use it quite a bit to audition stuff and if I save $10/month by not buying a CD I'm making money. It was a real joy to have to last weekend when I drove from Denver back to Detroit and listened to some downloads I saved in the no cell coverage plains of eastern Colorado and western Kansas. We're talking 100s of miles and hours of no service. No ripping from CD or vinyl, I just searched and downloaded at home from my network and all was set in less than 10 minutes.
Sure helped through this...
ldatlof
We are all steak
I agree with Alobar and JoeESP9 regarding the use of .flac files and metadata. Moreover, the amount of processing power it takes to decode a redbook .flac file is negligible on a Raspberry Pi 3 (it averages 1.7% of 1 CPU core) so that is of little concern. The RPi3 has less processing power than a Pentium Chip.
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I'll join the fray on metadata too. My initial work with digital files was burning .WAV files to iTunes which worked fine until I decided to move them to another drive on my PC. Somehow, I borked the the transfer and the path to the metadata got fubared. It took me quite a while to manually reconstruct the paths so I had albums and artists rather than single files named 01-Take Five and the like.
Twasn't fun.
I've been using FLAC ever since and convert to 320 .MP3s for my car, which I dump on a thumb drive and shuffle play via a USB. But that may change too as my car unit software only recognize 100 files and is far more cumbersome than my phone via a Bluetooth FM transmitter to the radio. My daughter bought one of these KM18s for under $30 for my wife's car which lacked even an Aux input and it works VERY well.
Twasn't fun.
I've been using FLAC ever since and convert to 320 .MP3s for my car, which I dump on a thumb drive and shuffle play via a USB. But that may change too as my car unit software only recognize 100 files and is far more cumbersome than my phone via a Bluetooth FM transmitter to the radio. My daughter bought one of these KM18s for under $30 for my wife's car which lacked even an Aux input and it works VERY well.