Ortofon 2m Blue vs 2m Bronze on Thorens TD160

Adamo0926 said:
From the Ortofon website:

2M Series styli interchangeability:
The 2M Series' engines, coils and magnets configurations are not identical: Red and Blue are identical, so are the Bronze and Black and so are the true mono variants 2M Mono and 2M 78. Likewise, 2M series styli are interchangeable within the below combinations:
- 2M Red, 2M Blue and 2M Silver
- 2M Bronze, 2M Black and 2m Black LVB 250
- 2M Mono and 2M 78
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I know what the website says. It's a marketing gimmick It is a fact that ANY 2M stylus will fit ANY 2M body. For example, an LVB Black stylus on a Red body will fit, and it will work, just not as well as the more expensive generator would let it, and it would definitely be out of place. Ortofon wants people to think it CAN'T be done, to prevent them from putting a Bronze/Black stylus on a Red/Blue body. They'd rather you pay the extra $80-100ish dollars for the upgrade body. And they're right, why would you buy a race-horse, and then not let it run? But, the truth is somewhat different.

A close friend is an authorized Ortofon dealer. He has called Ortofon-USA while I was present, and asked them this exact question, and relayed their response. And, as I have the Red, Blue, and Bronze, I've actually done the experiments. Surprisingly enough, my records didn't melt, the stylus didn't fall off, and the cantilever didn't bend like one of Uri Geller's silver spoons. The ONLY thing that happened was that the Bronze stylus on the Red generator didn't sound as detailed, open, or airy. It seemed rather constricted. However, the Blue stylus on the Bronze body actually has a more pleasant presentation than with the correct lower-tier generator. In THIS configuration. the performance gap between the Blue and Bronze styli shrinks noticeably. That's not to say they're equal, because they're not. The Bronze is still way better.
 
Adamo0926 said:
According to Ortofon the Red and Blue stylus are interchangeable with their cartridges and the Bronze and Black stylus are interchangeable with their cartridges. Meaning that you can't use the Bronze stylus on the Blue's cartridge body.
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Even though it's not recommended on their website, the Bronze stylus will still fit, and will still work on the 2M Red/Blue body. It may not be a prudent idea considering the cost, but if you already had a 2M Blue body, and stumbled onto a cheap Bronze stylus, it can be done.

It's not uncommon for manufacturers to discourage that sort of stylus exchange between different models with the same shape body but non-identical coil structures (ie: the Nagaoka JN-P500 is not the suggested replacement stylus for the MP150/MP200 body, but it will work, and can even have stellar results).
 
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justjed2 said:
I know what the website says. It's a marketing gimmick It is a fact that ANY 2M stylus will fit ANY 2M body. For example, an LVB Black stylus on a Red body will fit, and it will work, just not as well as the more expensive generator would let it, and it would definitely be out of place. Ortofon wants people to think it CAN'T be done, to prevent them from putting a Bronze/Black stylus on a Red/Blue body. They'd rather you pay the extra $80-100ish dollars for the upgrade body. And they're right, why would you buy a race-horse, and then not let it run? But, the truth is somewhat different.

A close friend is an authorized Ortofon dealer. He has called Ortofon-USA while I was present, and asked them this exact question, and relayed their response. And, as I have the Red, Blue, and Bronze, I've actually done the experiments. Surprisingly enough, my records didn't melt, the stylus didn't fall off, and the cantilever didn't bend like one of Uri Geller's silver spoons. The ONLY thing that happened was that the Bronze stylus on the Red generator didn't sound as detailed, open, or airy. It seemed rather constricted. However, the Blue stylus on the Bronze body actually has a more pleasant presentation than with the correct lower-tier generator. In THIS configuration. the performance gap between the Blue and Bronze styli shrinks noticeably. That's not to say they're equal, because they're not. The Bronze is still way better.
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So here is what I have going on here as we speak.....

I have 2 of my friend's TTs. A Thorens TD-147 with a 2M Blue that was just put on it. A Dual 506 with a 2M Red. And my own TT, a Thorens TD-145 with a Denon DL-110 which has been on the deck for awhile but it's not like I have come close to wearing it out. But I have been considering a change to either the 2M Blue or the 2M Bronze.

My friend and I have compared the Red to the Blue awhile back and both of us found the Blue is a significant leap over the Red.

Tonight I have been comparing the 2M Blue on my friend's TD-147 to the DL-110 on my TD-145. My observations are this. Both are excellent sounding cartridges. But I'm leaning toward the sound of the 2M Blue. The DL-110 sounds a bit veiled and laid back compared to the Blue. The Blue has more impact with the percussion, more air around the vocals and a bit better clarity in the upper mid range and high frequencies. I think the DL-110 has a bit better bass. I should mention that a couple of the LPs I played the Blue did a better job on a couple of passages where sibilance can be heard. It was quite a bit less noticeable with the Blue than with the DL-110. (Could the TT be a factor regarding that as well ?). I just assumed the Blue tracks better and perhaps because the DL-110 has more use than this brand new Blue. Or maybe I need to have my TD-145 re-calibrated ?

That being said, I am still considering a move to the 2M Bronze, which I have yet to hear. You indicate in your post that the Bronze is significantly better than the Blue. Which would at least make me feel better about it's 500.00 price tag. How would you describe the difference in sound characteristics between the Blue and the Bronze ? Do you think the Bronze is worth twice the price of the Blue ?

Seems like you have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this Ortfon 2M series, so let me pick your brain....lol.
 
The Bronze is everything you like about the Blue, and more. Quieter. Cleaner. More detail. Better high end, a really tight, clean, bass response, and a very smooth overall tonal balance. Plus, the Fine Line stylus, while being a true line contact profile, is more closely related to a hyper-elliptical, and is a little less fussy about certain alignment parameters like SRA, VTA, and azimuth. While it certainly benefits from extra care in set-up, it's not as critical as with a Shibata, Micro Line, or most other exotic profiles.
 
justjed2 said:
The Bronze is everything you like about the Blue, and more. Quieter. Cleaner. More detail. Better high end, a really tight, clean, bass response, and a very smooth overall tonal balance. Plus, the Fine Line stylus, while being a true line contact profile, is more closely related to a hyper-elliptical, and is a little less fussy about certain alignment parameters like SRA, VTA, and azimuth. While it certainly benefits from extra care in set-up, it's not as critical as with a Shibata, Micro Line, or most other exotic profiles.
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Thanks ! I've had the Bronze on my mind for quite some time. Wish I had purchased one earlier before the prices went up.
 
Yeah, the price increase isn't really a good thing. But, the lower three 2M styli, on the Bronze generator, cover pretty much all of my MM needs. Not quite the bargain prices of some other manufacturers, but I don't mind paying a bit more, if the performance I'm looking for is there. YMMV
 
justjed2 said:
Yeah, the price increase isn't really a good thing. But, the lower three 2M styli, on the Bronze generator, cover pretty much all of my MM needs. Not quite the bargain prices of some other manufacturers, but I don't mind paying a bit more, if the performance I'm looking for is there. YMMV
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when my friend and I did an A/B comparison of the Red vs the Blue just by swapping out the stylus since they use the same cartridge body, we both immediately thought the Blue was significantly better.
 
I use the Red for grading used vinyl. Never really cared for the sound. I ran the Blue for 6 years before moving up to the Bronze. Running all 3 styli on the Bronze body means I only have to change VTF & AS. It's the most cost effective option, and actually improves the sound of the Red/Blue styli.
 
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justjed2 said:
Let us know what you think, if you go that way.....
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I've been doing a lot of reading on both. How do you find the bass response of the Bronze compared to the Blue ? Some of the things I have read seem to indicate the Bronze to be a bit more bright than the Blue and perhaps the bass not as deep. And then others say the bass response is better and that the Bronze is a fuller. richer sounding cartridge without losing any of the upper end detail.

If I were 100% sure that the Bronze had equal bass response to the Blue or maybe even a bit better, I would likely lean to the Bronze.
 
A lot of it is probably system dependent. For some time now, I've been of the opinion that most of the folks complaining of weak bass from the Bronze didn't give the cart time to properly bed-in. Both of mine took between 40-50 hours. Even then, the tonal balance is so smooth and even that you don't really notice the bass, until you realize that you're still feeling it, and you're hearing more individual bass notes, rather than just being pummeled by a wall of air.

It's very precise, and even-handed, but it isn't a particularly warm sounding cart. I've got a pair of 12AX7s in my line stage preamp to deal with that.
 
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MKF said:
Firstly, I am well aware the 2M Bronze is a higher profile cartridge and stylus. My question is...

Is it that much better than the 2M Blue that it justifies double the price?

Since Shure stopped production I have been pretty loyal to the Ortofon 2M Blue, which I think tracks brilliantly and also sounds very good. If I upgraded to the Bronze will I be blown away or...is the 2M Blue fantastic for its price range making it more bang for my buck?

A solid tracker is very important as I have an old house with wood floors and the Ortofon tracks brilliantly on the Thorens suspension table with no issues.
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I went from a 2M Blue to a 2M Bronze. I thought that the Bronze was not that much better than the 2M Blue on the Technics. I also bought some more $$$ AT MM cartridges. Like the VM760SLC.

I do not own a Thorens TD160 turntable. Mine are direct drive.

But, to me when I started heading towards more $$$ MM cartridges, my interests in MC cartridges woke up. I haven't used MM cartridges since, for my two turntables.

Just thought I'd pass that along to you. For whatever it is worth. Good luck, with your search! :thumbsup:
 
I Have friends and acquaintances that owned Ortofon Bronze and blue. But they all own Denon MC now. They all have pre-amps with MC inputs. I gave up on Ortofon a while ago which doesn't apply here. BUt all of us believe our MC are smoother sounding but yet more revealing with better bass response. I Will say that the more advanced the stylus shape and better the cantilever the better the tracking, with less distortion and smoother sound. PErsonnally I find the Bronze Ortofon to be to bright and a bit shrill without the correct bass foundation. The much older MC SL 15 mK II was much smoother and enjoyable. I have dubs I made with that cartridge on CD and still have the LP's. I played the LP's on a friends system when he was using the BRonze and the sound is totally different from the older Ortofon and my Dynavectors.
 
I tried the Bronze over one weekend. I also found it's EQ kinda odd. Tilted mid-high. With thin bass. Now, maybe a weekend isn't enough time for break-in. I dunno. I just didn't have the patience to listen to more records.

The Audio Technica VM760SLC is even more tilted to the top end. I stopped experimenting with MM cartridges, at that point.
 
twiiii said:
I Have friends and acquaintances that owned Ortofon Bronze and blue. But they all own Denon MC now. They all have pre-amps with MC inputs. I gave up on Ortofon a while ago which doesn't apply here. BUt all of us believe our MC are smoother sounding but yet more revealing with better bass response. I Will say that the more advanced the stylus shape and better the cantilever the better the tracking, with less distortion and smoother sound. PErsonnally I find the Bronze Ortofon to be to bright and a bit shrill without the correct bass foundation. The much older MC SL 15 mK II was much smoother and enjoyable. I have dubs I made with that cartridge on CD and still have the LP's. I played the LP's on a friends system when he was using the BRonze and the sound is totally different from the older Ortofon and my Dynavectors.
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I actually have a Denon DL-110 on my Thorens TD-145 and have been comparing it to the Ortofon 2M Blue on my friend's Thorens TD-147 yesterday and today. Granted, the 2M Blue is brand new and the DL-110 has been on my table for quite some time, though it hasn't had enough play to be at the end of it's run. However it obviously has some wear.

I've gone back and forth several times using the same albums. I like the 2M Blue better for a couple of reasons. More air around the vocals, more clarity in the upper mids and highs. And while the DL-110 does have a bit better bass, I especially like the airiness and open sounding vocals with the 2M Blue. Yes it's brighter and not as warm as the DL-110 but right now the testing is being done with a Pioneer SX-850 receiver. My main setup is a Hafler DH-220 amp with either a Hafler DH-110 or APT Holman preamp. The APT Holman being the more smooth and refined sounding of the preamps. So that set up would certainly tone down some of the brightness of the 2M Blue but also would probably make the DL-110 start to sound rolled off at the upper frequencies.

Of course.....if the DL-110 were replaced with a new one it would probably be a more fair comparison. But since listening to the 2M Blue I have listened to more LPs in the past 3 days than I have in the past several months......so that seems like it's a pretty good indication that I really like that 2M Blue.
 
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Mr Boochie said:
Of all the MM cartridges I've recently used... I like the 2M Blue and the Nagaoka MP-200 the best.

My all-time favorite was the Shure V15 III HE on my old Sony TTS-3000. Mostly for sentimental reasons. ;)
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I was going to suggest considering the Nagaoka line, but Mr Boochie beat me to it. The good stuff starts around the MP150/MP200, with the MP200 offering the boron cantilever with the nude elliptical profile...many consider the MP200 (< $400 thru CDJapan) the sweet spot in their lineup (but even the MP110 is pretty well liked as a great value cart). The better Nags have midrange clarity and soundstage in spades, and beautiful delicate treble without the rise found in many carts....you can add the JN-P500 stylus to the MP200 down the road and get a good taste of one of the best non-MC carts on the market (IMHO).
 
Mr Boochie said:
Of all the MM cartridges I've recently used... I like the 2M Blue and the Nagaoka MP-200 the best.

My all-time favorite was the Shure V15 III HE on my old Sony TTS-3000. Mostly for sentimental reasons. ;)
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I was reading about the MP-200 as well.
knotscott said:
I was going to suggest considering the Nagaoka line, but Mr Boochie beat me to it. The good stuff starts around the MP150/MP200, with the MP200 offering the boron cantilever with the nude elliptical profile...many consider the MP200 (< $400 thru CDJapan) the sweet spot in their lineup (but even the MP110 is pretty well liked as a great value cart). The better Nags have midrange clarity and soundstage in spades, and beautiful delicate treble without the rise found in many carts....you can add the JN-P500 stylus to the MP200 down the road and get a good taste of one of the best non-MC carts on the market (IMHO).
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Well I guess there is no law against having more than one cartridge, right ? lol I mean I have a couple of preamps, 2 receivers (down from my previous 4) and 4 sets of speakers. I can always get another headshell for my TD-145 and have a 2nd cartridge and those could be part of the rotation as well.

I might even find that one cartridge is better for a certain set of speakers than the other, or has more synergy with my separates set up while the other is better for my receivers.
 
Dear everyone
I would like to know if anyone knows the Ortofon tonearm ball bearing type?
Also, does anyone have a production drawing of it
 
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