Perfect speaker placement - Is it amp dependent?

[ehoove]

redboy,
Because of the interaction which occurs between poweramp stages and loudspeakers,the correct concept is to consider the amp and speaker as functionally 'one'.
The ultimate behavour of the amp is determined by what speaker it is hooked-up to,and similarly the ultimate performance of the speaker is determined by which poweramp it is partnered with.
They have to be considered as one functioning unit.

Great comment. I had a MC2100 which I have always and will always think very highly of, but it did not drive my GMA Continuum1's well - sloppy bottom and veiled upper end. Not the amps fault, just a bad combo. I replaced it with a direct-coupled amp the Acurus A200 and the results were amazing. Synergy between components is what makes great music. IMHO
Regards,
Jim

 

[jimfet]

No source. No sound. No ****.

:scratch2:I was just being alittle sarcastic to the statement on page one where someone said no amp hooked to the speaker no sound. I'm like you."no ****"

 

[Redboy]

If nothing else, we've established in this thread that speakers without amps make little sound worth mentioning. That was a worthwhile exercise! :thmbsp:

I'm still wrestling with the idea that a different amp could necessitate a repositioning of the speakers in the room. I think Rich had it best:

Sometimes, I think, changing electronics or sources makes you focus on different aspects of the sound. So, you might find yourself tweaking location even though it is true that the speakers are "throwing sound in the same direction, in the same room."

My guess is that my speakers were not perfectly positioned in the first place. The revealing nature of my new amp allowed me to notice that and correct for it.

Plausible?

 

[Redboy]

If nothing else, we've established in this thread that speakers without amps make little sound worth mentioning. That was a worthwhile exercise! :thmbsp:

I'm still wrestling with the idea that a different amp could necessitate a repositioning of the speakers in the room. I think Rich had it best:

Sometimes, I think, changing electronics or sources makes you focus on different aspects of the sound. So, you might find yourself tweaking location even though it is true that the speakers are "throwing sound in the same direction, in the same room."

My guess is that my speakers were not perfectly positioned in the first place. The revealing nature of my new amp allowed me to notice that and correct for it.

I'm still thinking perfect speaker placement within a room is independent of what's driving them. Am I still wrong?

 

[wineslob]

If nothing else, we've established in this thread that speakers without amps make little sound worth mentioning. That was a worthwhile exercise! :thmbsp:

I'm still wrestling with the idea that a different amp could necessitate a repositioning of the speakers in the room. I think Rich had it best:
My guess is that my speakers were not perfectly positioned in the first place. The revealing nature of my new amp allowed me to notice that and correct for it.
Plausible?

This is exactly what I had in mind to mention. A better amp will more sucessfully preserve the waveform/soundstage of the signal going through it. You most likely noticed the off-position of your speakers with the better amp.
One other thing, get the position right, but DONT start re-positioning because of differences in the recordings (dog chasing it's tail syndrome). Going through your collection will be telling.

 

[Redboy]

One other thing, get the position right, but DONT start re-positioning because of differences in the recordings (dog chasing it's tail syndrome). Going through your collection will be telling.

That's the significant downside that I've noticed here. The better my system gets, the crappier my music collection gets, if that makes sense. A double-edged sword.

The good stuff sounds incredible! The rest... not so.

 

[JJJimmy]

Maybe NOW would be a good time for you guys to throw out some other "helpful hints" for speaker placement, etc.

I would LOVE to have a "listening room" with a sweet spot chair for myself...but can't afford it! Like most I know, my system is set up in the living room, with U shaped seating all around the A/V sources. What are some other good points, besides speaker stands, to consider in positioning, dial/knob settings, etc?:scratch2:

 

[outshined]

In '87 I built a room in the basement for 2 channel. It's 12 ft. W x 9ft. H. The side walls are completely covered with 1" Sonex. It is a LEDE room, where the space behind the sweet spot extends another 10' (this spot proved to be the perfect place for the sub) It may sound like the room is too dead, but it's not... I have all the top end to make most source material, mostly cd's, sound, well, the way they were recorded.
The main reason was to create a room ideally suited to Carvers' Sonic Holography, and it works very well. Scary good! People who hear the system for the first time don't believe there are only 2 speakers in the room.
I like the effect because it opens up the soundstage to huge proportions, while retaining the acoustical positioning of the instuments as they were recorded. Even though I'm only a few feet away from each sidewall, instruments seem to be several feet to the sides, some are very high in the room (mostly special effects) and the bass and drums are solidly in front.
It's an amazing way to listen, and when I listen to someone else's system without Holography, no matter how audiophile approved, it's really just not the same; flat, congested and uninvolving.
One of the most important things to consider is the ambient noise of any room used for serious listening. The quieter, the better...This allows you to hear every instument that's low in volume quite clearly. And there is no doubt in my mind that the Sonic Holography helps in this regard tremendously.
If you've dismissed Carvers' circuit as nonsense, you probably have not heard a properly set-up system specifically for Holography.
I have been listening this way since the circuit was introduced, around '77 I think, and it improves the sound of about 95% of all recordings I listen to.
No amp can do this alone, I'm sure...
My speakers are positioned to within 1/4" and are equidistant from my chair, something that should be done with any system. Paul Klipsch once said "If you can't see the tweeter, you can't hear it"
Experimenting with toe in and toe out is also advisable, as you know.
Let me also say that I am not a big believer in differences in the way different amps, preamps, cd players and TT's, with exception of the cartridge.

Thanks for reading.

 

[wineslob]

That's the significant downside that I've noticed here. The better my system gets, the crappier my music collection gets, if that makes sense. A double-edged sword.

The good stuff sounds incredible! The rest... not so.

But not a bad one! It's nice to know that you are hearing what the recording really sounds like.

 

[wineslob]

Maybe NOW would be a good time for you guys to throw out some other "helpful hints" for speaker placement, etc.

I would LOVE to have a "listening room" with a sweet spot chair for myself...but can't afford it! Like most I know, my system is set up in the living room, with U shaped seating all around the A/V sources. What are some other good points, besides speaker stands, to consider in positioning, dial/knob settings, etc?:scratch2:

The best advice I can give is go here: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

and read all of it. Yes your brain might explode, but it's worth it. :yes:

 

[Redboy]

I would LOVE to have a "listening room" with a sweet spot chair for myself...but can't afford it! Like most I know, my system is set up in the living room, with U shaped seating all around the A/V sources.

I should qualify my "perfect placement" statement a little. I'm talking about perfect placement within a given room. My room is far less than ideal. I'd love to have a room built around a system (would love to hear yours, outshined!) but I do what I can with what I have until that glorious day comes.

 

[outshined]

JJJimmy,
Thanks for the comments. If you have a basement, it would be relatively easy to build your perfect room... It didn't cost a fortune, as I had help from friends. The main thing is to be sure the dimensions of the finished room will suit your needs.
My room opens into an L shape, where my A/V system is (12x30)
DVD's sound spectacular on the 2 channel system! But there's no room for a big screen and all the video junk I use to watch.
So, I too, am waiting for the day when the front channels on my video system sound as good as my 2 ch. system!

My system (A/V) is having a makeover right now. When all is ready, I will post pics of the whole mess.

 

[Tapehead47]

That was very informative

I
In '87 I built a room in the basement for 2 channel. It's 12 ft. W x 9ft. H. The side walls are completely covered with 1" Sonex.


What would be the 3rd dimension of your listening room?? My 'listening room' aka 'mancave' is 12' x 12' x 9'H. I'm going to look into the Sonex material you mentioned.

My room is 'multi-functional'. The biggest problem is a small air conditioner that runs 24/7 here in Florida. Otherwise the only other major item is my computer, which must stay where it is.

Thanks for that interesting reply to the thread starter.

Rick

 

[Tapehead47]

Redboy: How about using a room divider on one side of your listening area? In my simple way I think it would help contain the escaping sound and help balance and focus the waves.

They use similar 'baffles' in recording studios. I'm sure placement would be very critical. But that's all part of the fun.

Rick

 

[outshined]

Rick,
Thanks for the kind words.

My 2 ch. room opens into my 12x30 A/V room, with my sweet spot recliner right on the line that forms the L. There is 10 ft. of space behind the chair, so reflections from the back wall are nil. A little reflection is good, because it adds a sense of ambience and depth to what is already a nice sound, thanks to my Carver re-built C-4000.

The Sonex is great, though a little pricey. I got a volume discount, and as I remember, I spent $600 to cover both side walls, roughly 160 sq. ft. But, they came in 4x6' panels, which made life much easier.

After 20 years, it still holds up well, but high humidity will degrade the foam to some extent. I use 2 dehumidifiers to ensure a totally dry environment where a basement situation can be problematic with regard to humidity.

 

[Tapehead47]

Well, outshined, if I had and extra $600 I'd....

I can do anything I want out here in my shed. I'm thinking maybe using indoor/outdoor carpeting on the walls. Maybe screwing it into the sheetrock in a vertical wave pattern. It would be very inexpensive in comparison to Sonex.

I think Redboy can't do that, as his room is part of the house. If the listening area could be 'squared off' it may help.

Rick

 

[RayW]

Redboy: How about using a room divider on one side of your listening area? In my simple way I think it would help contain the escaping sound and help balance and focus the waves.

That can cause problems too. If it's soft it will absorb really high frequencies, reflect/contain the ones that are big enough that the surface looks "flat", and do nothing at all for the frequencies where the wavelength is longer than the thickness of the divider. So you'll be getting a frequency dependent room barrier.

By reflecting the midrange you may help the imaging but the bass frequencies are still going to see the bigger room.

Ray

 

[outshined]

Rick,
Expensive, yes. (and that was 1987 dollars)
There are more affordable foam type panels, such as those from Parts Express and other places like MCM Electronics.

I probably didn't have to cover both the entire walls with the stuff, but I wanted to make sure there were no reflections off the side walls.

Heck, you can buy convoluted foam mattress covers and use those, if you don't mind the color!

 

[Tmac83]

Do electrostatic speakers respond the same way as conventional cone speakers do when you are setting up the room? I recently was given a subscription to Stereophile for my birthday, and they talk alot about speaker placement when setting up systems to review. Obviously, every speaker is going to have a different sweet spot as far as how far away from the front wall and side walls it needs to be placed, but does the type of speaker make a difference? Sorry I hope that this is not too off topic.

Additionally, I can see how putting a different amp or receiver in the chain would make a difference in a room. If the amp has different qualities it will "use" the speakers differently causing the sound to be different in the room thus necessitating the moving of the speakers. Very interesting discussion so far.

 

[outshined]

Electrostatic speakers and Magnepans (which are not electrostatic) definitely require different placement and set-up than cone and dome speaks.
They require lots of room all around them to get the big sound they are known for. More so behind the speakers than to the sides, actually, because they radiate front and back, with little to the sides.

I'm not putting them down. They can sound great, but are limited in power handling, dynamics and distortion. True electrostats have come close, like Acoustat and Apogee, but they were very difficult to drive and were expensive. Yankee audio makes some good 'stats, but they, too, suffer from the same problems. Big bucks, too. Not to mention weak bass response.

Try and get as much room around the speakers and they will sound their best.