Phono preamp upgrade - overkill with my system?

[dpastern]

i'd go for a used but carefully maintained rega planar 3 or systemdek IIX ... then listen to the rest of your system again...
keep the cartridge..

Not a bad idea, I'd go with the SystemDek over the Rega - it's a better sounding turntable imho (better bass, better mids, and generally more musical).

You could go with a phono stage, but in all honesty, if the Pioneer can't get more music out of the LP, you'll be wasting a better phono stage imho.

I know you're talking budget, but in all honesty, I'd improve turntable before thinking phono stage. No slight meant on the Pioneer.

Dave

 

[JRSBat]

Follow up - bought a new PS Audio GCPH

I found a PS Audio GCPH demo online for around $660. When I contacted the dealer, the demo had already sold. Then the dealer said he would sell me a brand new one for the same price. I received the new preamp a few days ago. Now, as discussed in other threads, the following comments might be the product of subconscious justification of purchase price - I like to think not.

WOW!!!!!! - I know the GCPH needs a couple hundred hours of burn in to reach its best sound, but right out of the box it blows away the Pro-Ject preamp! There is no question the PL-610/OM30 can pull more out of the album than the Pro-Ject could convey!! I also bought a PS Audio Duet (same kind of discount/deal) to protect the new investment and the old - plus maybe help sound quality(?).

Now I will sit back, enjoy the music and let the new components continue to mellow out and improve. Heck, my RS1i headphones are still burning in so everything will just keep getting better!!

The other great thing about the GCPH is that it is highly adjustable. It can handle just about any TT or cartridge I might throw at it down the road. Just as Mark noted above, it can be the cornerstone of my system - surviving the inevitable changes in future years.

I am going to hold off on the headphone amp. The GCPH/HK combo sounds great right now. I took apart the HK and De-Ox'd every possible place I could - using info from yet another AK thread on De-Oxit cleaning procedures. I replaced the 30 year old internal fuses with regular Littelfuse fuses instead of the $30 - $70 audio fuses. I still have trouble understanding the value of the latter. I will recap the HK before looking at headphone amps again.

As always, I appreciate all of the comments/advice! It really helped me in the decision process.

 

[vinyl1]

Well, remember my post early in this thread. You have just acquired a component that is better than anything else in your system. In order to hear it to its maximum potential, you would have to upgrade other components.

Maybe you will take a while at this, but now you can see what is possible, and why people pay money for this stuff.....it's gooood.

 

[Rick R.]

Well, remember my post early in this thread. You have just acquired a component that is better than anything else in your system. In order to hear it to its maximum potential, you would have to upgrade other components.

Maybe you will take a while at this, but now you can see what is possible, and why people pay money for this stuff.....it's gooood.

Yup... spent much time 32 years ago putting together a system that I hoped would have no weak links. Just did the same thing last year.

(old)Billard Room- MA6100, MR77, Polk Monitor 10's front, 4's rear, Dual ULM w/Ortophon MC, Technics CD

(new)Main listening room- C46, MC402, MR88, MVP871, B&W 803D's front, 805's rear and ASW 855 sub, Music Hall 9.1 w/Goldring MC, Dynavector pre-phono.

Since the topic was pre-phono, and the old amp did not need one, my only experience was listening to just a few and finally after reading some reviews pulled the trigger on the Dynavector p75mkII. I have since redicovered much vinyl. Between the new Music Hall TT and the new pre, the most significant sound was what I did not hear...it was the absolute quiet! I really mean totally quiet, no ground lead needed, whether full throttle, can dance on the floor next to it, speakers in take-off mode, sub-woofer window rattling or yet lift the arm and listen to the silence, quiet. The Dyna is a great value.

 

[JRSBat]

Well, remember my post early in this thread. You have just acquired a component that is better than anything else in your system. In order to hear it to its maximum potential, you would have to upgrade other components.

Maybe you will take a while at this, but now you can see what is possible, and why people pay money for this stuff.....it's gooood.

I just purchased a used Grado RA-1 headphone amp. The GCPH has balanced and unbalanced outputs so I can run one set of interconnects (with adaptors) to the receiver and one directly to the RA-1.

BIG :yes: sound improvement with the RA-1 feeding directly from the pre-amp! The synergy between the RA-1 and the RS-1i headphones is incredible!

I took the PL-610 in today to have it re-capped and checked over. I printed off pustelniakr's instructions on restoring a PL-630 and highlighted all of the areas I wanted done. Between those instructions, 630 service manual and the 610 service manual, the tech should be able to take care of my TT. I don't think they have had someone come into their shop with so much info.

Once I am sure the PL-610 has no problems and is a long term keeper, I might upgrade the cartridge to a Benz Ace and call it a day. I am going to keep my system headphone based, so the HK and Advents can stay as is (maybe recap the HK). They won't be seeing much work unless SWMBO begins allowing a decent amount of music volume in the house.

 

[Rick R.]

Sounds like you have got the plan and the good listening worked out. Now we just have to get your need for headphones to be hearing protectors while you dance the night away listening to your newly aquired and tuned rig as it tests the integrity of the window glass!

Happy listening.

 

[ambient]

I just purchased a used Grado RA-1 headphone amp. The GCPH has balanced and unbalanced outputs so I can run one set of interconnects (with adaptors) to the receiver and one directly to the RA-1.

BIG :yes: sound improvement with the RA-1 feeding directly from the pre-amp! The synergy between the RA-1 and the RS-1i headphones is incredible!

I took the PL-610 in today to have it re-capped and checked over. I printed off pustelniakr's instructions on restoring a PL-630 and highlighted all of the areas I wanted done. Between those instructions, 630 service manual and the 610 service manual, the tech should be able to take care of my TT. I don't think they have had someone come into their shop with so much info.

Once I am sure the PL-610 has no problems and is a long term keeper, I might upgrade the cartridge to a Benz Ace and call it a day. I am going to keep my system headphone based, so the HK and Advents can stay as is (maybe recap the HK). They won't be seeing much work unless SWMBO begins allowing a decent amount of music volume in the house.

My upgrade path was similar to yours: vintage amp and turntable, then added the Jolida phono amp, then put some money into the vintage amp and table. In retrospect, I think I would have been better off saving and getting a new higher end table. I recently landed a used Music Hall MMF-7 for less than you spent on your phono amp; and yes it destroys the vintage tables I've owned (Marantz 6110, Thorens TD-160) :yes:

 

[JRSBat]

:nono:

My upgrade path was similar to yours: vintage amp and turntable, then added the Jolida phono amp, then put some money into the vintage amp and table. In retrospect, I think I would have been better off saving and getting a new higher end table. I recently landed a used Music Hall MMF-7 for less than you spent on your phono amp; and yes it destroys the vintage tables I've owned (Marantz 6110, Thorens TD-160) :yes:

I know what you mean. I questioned whether to invest a little more in the current TT or bite the bullet and get a higher end used or demo deck. I have been looking reeeeal hard at a demo Marantz TT-15S1 priced at $1,195 on Musicdirect.com - that's only a few hundred more than its cartridge's list price. However, there are various reasons I need an auto return TT right now, so hopefully the Pl-610 checks out. The recap/service quote is pretty reasonable so it might bring my total investment in the TT to around $250. And if I get the Ace, it can move to the eventual next TT.

My total investment to date has been relatively low - unless you ask my wife.:nono:

 

[Rick R.]

My upgrade path was similar to yours: vintage amp and turntable, then added the Jolida phono amp, then put some money into the vintage amp and table. In retrospect, I think I would have been better off saving and getting a new higher end table. I recently landed a used Music Hall MMF-7 for less than you spent on your phono amp; and yes it destroys the vintage tables I've owned (Marantz 6110, Thorens TD-160) :yes:

I concur with the new TT. As in my earlier post, I am blown away by the abolute quiet that I start with for my vinyl sound. Also Music Hall.

btw, should I let my wife (who absolutely loves the new system) slip a word to yours!

Music is good!

Happy listening.

 

[MWalt]

My upgrade path was similar to yours: vintage amp and turntable, then added the Jolida phono amp, then put some money into the vintage amp and table. In retrospect, I think I would have been better off saving and getting a new higher end table. I recently landed a used Music Hall MMF-7 for less than you spent on your phono amp; and yes it destroys the vintage tables I've owned (Marantz 6110, Thorens TD-160) :yes:

I have a MMF-5.1. Same arm as the MMF-7. Destroys all my vintage decks. I use a relatively inexpensive Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre.

 

[zenith2134]

Well I agree with M. Walters that the 640P is a nice entry-level RIAA stage. But where he states that SET = "single-ended transformer", well that is simply incorrect.

SET= Single-Ended Triode. The fact that some S.E. designs employ an OTL (output-Transformer-less) topology is beside the point.

Anyway, I've used the MM-only Cambridge 540P in the past and even that was a killer in its price range.... I got it new for $99 USD and its accuracy was +/-0.65dB from 20Hz to 20kHz while the 640P did +/-0.3dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

 

[MWalt]

Well I agree with M. Walters that the 640P is a nice entry-level RIAA stage. But where he states that SET = "single-ended transformer", well that is simply incorrect.

SET= Single-Ended Triode. The fact that some S.E. designs employ an OTL (output-Transformer-less) topology is beside the point.

Anyway, I've used the MM-only Cambridge 540P in the past and even that was a killer in its price range.... I got it new for $99 USD and its accuracy was +/-0.65dB from 20Hz to 20kHz while the 640P did +/-0.3dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

Yeah, you're right. I had a couple beers too many when I wrote that *grin*. Not that I know a whole lot about SET amps except that every one I have ever heard sounded so nice.

 

[BrocLuno]

Your refurbished Pioneer turntable will hold you in good stead up to maybe $500~$600 cartridge range. Are you replacing the interconnects? The cool thing is that it takes universal headshells Yeah there is some give away in arm rigidity with the coupling, but it's a good trade-off in that you can mount many types of headshells.

They range is weight from about 6.7 grams to ~20 or so. The Ortofon OM30 really likes light weight arm, so make yours act like that. Dismount the cartridge, pull the brass keystone headweight and re-install. I'd suggest LPGears SOAR wires while you are about it. Now you have the equivalent of a light arm and it will sing.

Other cartridges, like some Moving Coils want to play against higher mass. You can get a Stanton cast shell with screw-in weights for not much and adjust as needed to get your favorite MC to play as desired

Along the way, you can have a couple of other cartridges mounted and ready to go. I don't know about using the OM30 for used vinyl preview and such :scratch2: I think I'd rather use a utility cartridge for that. Maybe an AT95e or a Shure M97Xe.

In any case with just a few more tweaks, you will have a wonderful system and a lot of flexibility

 

[JohnVF]

Music Direct is a pleasure to deal with. I bought my VPI as a demo from them and since they are local I went there in person to pick it up...they're good people and will treat you right if you go that route. I collected vintage turntables (still do, actually) but really only use my new one for most of my listening. It sounds much much better than anything I've had. It would be a logical upgrade for you but you don't have to do all of this stuff at once. There will always be demo or used turntables to tempt you. They have a Concept as well, I think, because I was looking at it for a second system (which isn't going to happen, because that would leave me with no use for my stash of vintage tables...I've heard the Concept, it destroys all of my vintage decks).

 

[JRSBat]

Your refurbished Pioneer turntable will hold you in good stead up to maybe $500~$600 cartridge range. Are you replacing the interconnects? The cool thing is that it takes universal headshells Yeah there is some give away in arm rigidity with the coupling, but it's a good trade-off in that you can mount many types of headshells.

They range is weight from about 6.7 grams to ~20 or so. The Ortofon OM30 really likes light weight arm, so make yours act like that. Dismount the cartridge, pull the brass keystone headweight and re-install. I'd suggest LPGears SOAR wires while you are about it. Now you have the equivalent of a light arm and it will sing.

Other cartridges, like some Moving Coils want to play against higher mass. You can get a Stanton cast shell with screw-in weights for not much and adjust as needed to get your favorite MC to play as desired

Along the way, you can have a couple of other cartridges mounted and ready to go. I don't know about using the OM30 for used vinyl preview and such :scratch2: I think I'd rather use a utility cartridge for that. Maybe an AT95e or a Shure M97Xe.

In any case with just a few more tweaks, you will have a wonderful system and a lot of flexibility

I'm going to talk to the tech Monday re: replacing the interconnects. I replaced the ones on my PL-112D but the PL-610/630 is different. It's interconnects are not soldered in like most TTs. The interconnects terminate in a 6 pin (Molex?) plug that connects to one of the internal boards. I am going to see how much it would be for the tech to find a similar plug and wire up RCAs to the back of the table. It's probably more than I want to spend - so maybe I just find a similar plug and try to wire up something myself. Hakaplan described how he wired up RCAs to the back of his 630 - I could give it a try.

When playing around with Vinylengine's arm/cart compliance Excel worksheet the PL-610/OM30 produced very low resonance number - 7.11. That is outside of the 8-12gm sweet spot. The resonance number was improved when I input the OM30's weight sans brass insert. To calculate the resonance number I used a 15gm arm weight - the average estimate used in various forum posts.

I was thinking about pulling the OM30's weight until I reread the PL-610's manual. The manual says the lightest useable cartridge weight is 4gm. If I pull the insert, the OM30 will weigh 2.5gm.

At the other end of the spectrum, an Ace weighs 8.8gm. The manual says I should use the tiny sub weight for all carts weighing over 8.5 grams. I don't have the sub weight.

Questions:

1. Will the arm function properly if I go outside of the manufacturer's cartridge weight specs?
2. What is the worst that could happen if I go outside of the specs and try one of the two options above?

 

[Blue Shadow]

All this talk about vintage vs. new TTs and I can't help but think that some of the vintage tables can be vastly improved by installing a separate tonearm.

I know Jim (ehoove) swapped the stock arm on his TD-160 for a Pro-ject 9cc and is extremely happy with the results. There is talk on other boards about the performance level of some vintage arms which can be had for 300 or less as exceeding the performance of a new arm in the 1000 dollar range which makes for a nicely expensive turntable. Might be worth checking out Jim's post about his experience to get his impressions. He dumped a new table for more work on his Thornes after hearing the difference.

A separate tone arm added to a nice turntable will make a world of difference. One limiting factor is the combination is almost always a manual turntable as the devices available to lift the arm at the end of the record, Thornes, Audio Technica and other made them, are hard to find and not cheap.

I discussed turntables with a friend thinking about getting into vinyl last night. He wants a statement table (vintage) and was asking about a Thornes TD-160 Super with a Magnepan arm or a Kenwwod KD-600 with a Fidelity Research arm. I told him to look at the KD-650 with the stock Kenwood arm as it is available for about the cost of a separate tonearm, is a great table, very nice tonearm and upgradeable with the replacement of the tonearm as the funds become available and the need arises.

Oh, to keep this on thread, if you have a heavy cartridge which needs the sub weight, you need the sub weight to balance the arm. Work arounds are the use of something that might thread in where the sub weight is supposed to go (if the weight is threaded) or some other way to put more weight on the back of the arm.